Is climate fully replaced by geopolitics? with Benjamin Gibson

00:00:10: Hi, welcome to Inconvenient Chats.

00:00:20: As you might have noticed, we've been off for a little break but I'm super excited to be back with new conversations.

00:00:44: In this new season of inconvenient chats the summer We'll be sharing a bunch of chats with special guests.

00:00:51: Because they take a bit more preparation i will publish them less regularly than what were used before.

00:00:56: So stay tuned and make sure your turn on automatic downloads.

00:01:01: In this first episode after the break, I had the pleasure to welcome Ben Jimi Gibson, Senior Manager for Geopolitics at Danish Wind Energy Developer OSTL.

00:01:10: He discussed with me if geopolitics is taking attention away from climate action and whether businesses just need to prioritise a climate agenda in order keep themselves afloat in a geopolitically volatile world?

00:01:22: As always If you have questions comments or topic recommendations You can write it to meet guys at inconvenientchats.com.

00:01:29: Please give a listen, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you get listened to your podcast.

00:01:34: I hope you enjoy the episode!

00:01:55: geopolitics and security really are a top of mind for, I guess everyone pretty much these days.

00:02:12: Tell me just kind of how do you do it personally?

00:02:15: How does your brain not explode with keeping up everything that's going on in the

00:02:19: world?".

00:02:20: That's a really good question.

00:02:22: Some some days i wonder myself um... And there are times when I feel like maybe stretching too far into With this particular topic, I inherently have a very strong interest in it.

00:02:39: So It's wonderful and that i get to work In the field.

00:02:44: Where?

00:02:45: I just find it fascinating And I might Have for A Very Long Time.

00:02:50: On The Other hand Because of That Dynamic Its Something where Can Bleed Into Personal time Becoming You Know a little more consuming than it should be.

00:03:06: And that's something, my own choosing and I occasionally have to check myself and set clear boundaries around.

00:03:17: okay do i really need read this?

00:03:20: one more foreign affairs article or Do I Really Need To Listen?

00:03:25: One More Podcast on US-China Relations?

00:03:30: Most of the time, probably not.

00:03:36: And I've actually started doing this more regularly by just kind shifting my podcast and things to be more balanced on different things.

00:03:48: I'm

00:03:48: working on studying Danish at the moment so that helps when you listen some Danish podcasts.

00:04:00: So it's a lot to take in, especially these days when you have sort of layering on of geopolitically relevant topics.

00:04:10: You know subtopics like climate change that we'll talk about today?

00:04:14: Like artificial intelligence and then of course just the inherent geopolitical tensions that had been increasing.

00:04:22: And Then when you add to that the pace at which things have started to move over the past couple of years, it's just a lot to absorb.

00:04:33: And so I totally understand why some people choose to check out from the news periodically or even longer term because at some point It becomes overwhelming and maybe not the best for one's mental health.

00:04:53: As you said i'm really keen on getting tensions and maybe non-tensions between geopolitics in climate change today.

00:05:03: But, maybe just to get started I'm curious how do you define geopolitics?

00:05:09: And how does one become an expert on

00:05:11: it?

00:05:12: Yeah...I think that's a question people are asking because its becomes so everywhere.

00:05:21: this word geopolitics everything is geopolitical and talking with a lot of counterparts who work in the field, especially in business these days.

00:05:34: It's this concern that it has gone from meaning everything to maybe now means nothing.

00:05:43: because if it means everything what is really about?

00:05:46: Exactly!

00:05:48: Sort-of traditional pretty concise definition would be something around that.

00:05:55: geopolitics is really about the intersection of geography and resources with political power, an international competition.

00:06:08: And it's sort of inherent in the word right?

00:06:11: Geo being... Being geography and politics between politics but it doesn't mean everything But It sort of touches a lot.

00:06:21: I mean Really That.

00:06:23: why Everything that's happening in the business world, and the political world.

00:06:29: And international economics, macroeconomics all of these things are greatly influenced especially now by geopolitics.

00:06:39: so um... That sort why it has become this all consuming concept The way I see it becoming an expert on geopolitics i don't necessarily consider myself an expert, I'm certainly a practitioner.

00:06:58: An expert i would say okay you probably have like a PhD in international relations.

00:07:03: You've probably studied deeply the history of geopolitics.

00:07:10: um...I Have done a fair bit of that..i think what's made me In my opinion pretty good at understanding it and bringing it into the business world is that I've long been sort of a generalist.

00:07:29: My career has been mostly in US government, but also came out university was management consulting for bit me just always like really wanting to learn take those opportunities understand how.

00:07:51: So I've worked in climate, international climate work.

00:07:55: Have worked in domestic air quality regulations have worked on you know as an economic reporting officer and Tajikistan... Wow!

00:08:05: ...I was a consulate officer from Panama And then i had focused energy experience In both the International Energy Agency's Sakhandi and at the International Renewable Energy Agency Working on geopolitics.

00:08:17: I think it just lends itself well to somebody who has high curiosity and who has experienced a number of different things around the world, both thematically and geographically.

00:08:34: And cross-sectorally across government private sector academia have done all those things.

00:08:41: so being a generalist whose curious and interested in wanting You know, a good way to at least be effective in geopolitics.

00:08:54: It's an interesting point with what you're saying with generalists I guess it ties back to what you were saying.

00:09:00: how geopolitics can...it can be many things.

00:09:07: In a way.

00:09:08: What is geopolitics today really and why?

00:09:12: Is so relevant?

00:09:13: then maybe on top of that How does climate or sustainability Maybe link to it.

00:09:21: Yeah, I mean i think geopolitics has not really changed that much over the years.

00:09:26: but of course The circumstances...the way the world is moving and how countries interact with each other particularly heavyweight geopolitical players.

00:09:41: That has changed.

00:09:42: And one of the slides that I like to show when i talk to people about this is really illustrating the convergence of GDP as a proportion of global GDP.

00:10:01: And if you look at, for example through group China and India together in stack that against the G seven countries go from two thousand those two proportions of global GDP to where now they're basic, they've converged more or less the same place.

00:10:25: And that's not to say India and China are a tight geopolitical unit.

00:10:31: They have their own issues for many years.

00:10:37: It is not said G-Seven as necessarily a tight Geopolitical Unit but what it means.

00:10:42: we move from this sort Western-led, more or less unipolarity of twenty five ish years ago to a place now where the balances of economic and geopolitical power have sort of converged.

00:11:00: Certainly changed to massive extent.

00:11:04: And when you had that convergence it's great in many ways It actually lifted millions people out poverty sort of levelized economic opportunities.

00:11:17: It's taken advantage of incredible economic efficiencies through global trade, but there are winners and losers.

00:11:25: There are new tensions that arise when different power centers sort of you know Are empowered to act on the power.

00:11:37: And so what we're seeing now is just a place where some Some governments may feel threatened, some may see opportunities that they didn't have before.

00:11:51: And those things can bump into one another.

00:11:55: and so I think that's a big reason why geopolitics is so much more omnipresent in conversations today than the news cycles.

00:12:07: In terms of connection with sustainability and climate change in particular, I think climate change and geopolitics are super tightly intertwined.

00:12:19: And it is bi-directional.

00:12:22: um...and by that i mean the fact that Climate Change has an will continue to have a massive impact on Geopolitics.

00:12:39: Some examples of that include, you know changing a physical trade routes as ice melts in the Arctic.

00:12:51: In terms of melting glaciers that are sources of water for countries or regions and causing upheaval forcing mass migration drought, just many physical impacts.

00:13:11: And then also the energy transition to the extent that is an effective solution to solve climate change... That's a big resource shift in terms of who has geopolitical power based on fossil fuels and the threat geopolitical influence through the buildup of supply chains and green technologies, for example.

00:13:42: That's just a massive shift that you know not everyone is going to react well to those changes.

00:13:50: yeah

00:13:51: so it's just something that needs to be worked through.

00:13:54: but then on the other side I mentioned this bi-directional linkage between climate change and geopolitics.

00:14:02: Just the fact that climate change as we all know is a global problem That no country can solve alone

00:14:12: and so

00:14:13: it requires To solve it effectively.

00:14:16: It requires cooperation And that

00:14:20: exactly

00:14:21: that works better when there's less antagonistic competition.

00:14:26: some competition of course, could be healthy but When there's no cooperation alongside that it really diminishes the world's ability to tackle climate change effectively.

00:14:41: so

00:14:42: in a moment where we are now, Where?

00:14:46: There has been you know sort of deterioration Of multilateral institutions.

00:14:53: There are fragmenting trade relationships They're all manner of geopolitical tensions between many of the worlds highest emitting countries, all of this sort of degrades the world's ability to tackle climate change.

00:15:11: It doesn't mean that it is still not happening and it won't happen but right now we are in a place where of course would be better if everyone was sort of rowing.

00:15:29: That

00:15:31: resonates a lot with kind of like the way that I've also learned to... So, I studied international security.

00:15:37: so i did a fair share studying some these things and interconnections before.

00:15:44: And especially if you take longer-term perspective You really see this bidirectionality Of the security effects of climate change.

00:15:55: But If we're looking at current state right now in world The reason why this is an inconvenient topic for me as well, if I look at the world from my perspective.

00:16:08: As someone who's quite active in sustainability and works in sustainability it looks like this whole geopolitical security rhetoric really taking a stage everywhere And then by that token there seems to be much less attention on things like climate, although as you just said maybe there is convergence and a lot of links or connections in the longer term.

00:16:42: But right now it feels like we're shifting between those two.

00:16:51: I don't know if that's true?

00:16:52: Is this just a rhetorical question or impression.

00:16:58: also what were seeing?

00:17:00: I think we're seeing a lot of exactly what you've described.

00:17:04: You know, I often think of these issues as maybe not the conventional energy trilemma but it may be a trilemma of different sorts with security and competitiveness in the Green Agenda specifically thinking about and what its priorities are these days, how it balances those three areas in terms of policy priorities that are relevant to this conversation.

00:17:41: And if we think back a few years the green agenda was very much out front at a time of lower geopolitical temperatures I would say.

00:17:57: And now we've come to a place following COVID, followed by Russia's illegal and provoked invasion of Ukraine four years ago.

00:18:11: And so over the past couple of years, we have seen much more conversation in Brussels and all around Europe.

00:18:33: Around industrial competitiveness... Yeah.

00:18:37: ...around security and multiple dimensions of security including energy security but also defense.

00:18:46: Also cyber-security.

00:18:51: overshadowing.

00:18:52: I mean, there's no two ways about it that those issues right now they're overshadowing the Green Agenda relative to where we were.

00:19:00: absolutely.

00:19:02: Now on the flip side of that or maybe taking a more optimistic view when you know layer-on what is happening in Middle East The closure of the Strait of Hormuz It just another massive reminder to policymakers that the status quo in the energy system, particularly in Europe is just.

00:19:30: it's not secure and It's not The way forward for resilience or For industrial competitiveness.

00:19:38: when you have You know demand destruction more of it on on their doorstep.

00:19:44: When you have maybe jet fuel shortages.

00:19:47: You have rising costs.

00:19:50: I think the estimates out of that European Commission, or something like this.

00:19:56: This crisis costing on the order of five hundred million euros a day in higher energy costs for the block and so you know that shifts minds hopefully to place where let's not solve security It's let's solve security, competitiveness and the climate crisis together.

00:20:26: Let's think a bit harder about investing in solutions that can check all the boxes.

00:20:31: Yeah So this is a long way of basically reminding uh The listeners that I work for an offshore wind company.

00:20:42: No really objectively i think policymakers And we certainly believe that in Europe, offshore wind can check all of those boxes.

00:20:55: I think we're feeling very fortunate right now to see and hear others seeing it.

00:21:03: It's not just off-shore winds other renewable solutions

00:21:07: but

00:21:08: at the end look for domestic energy solutions that can't be bottled up in the Strait of Hormuz or another choke point.

00:21:28: Yeah, it's a very concrete reminder Of the fragility and the energy systems.

00:21:37: And I mean It's not the first time right?

00:21:39: Like we've had almost exactly same A few years ago only with The Ukraine crisis.

00:21:47: Right

00:21:47: Exactly And it's a room, I mean...I tried to paint an optimistic picture but what you just said is also reminder that policymakers have short memories and sometimes politicians change.

00:22:05: They need reminders.

00:22:06: they need some times more than one reminder That these situations require long-term investment that requires sustained strategies that some of these vulnerabilities, they don't go away and black swans or whatever.

00:22:28: They may be can happen and tend to have more frequently in volatile times where tensions are high.

00:22:38: And although everyone has sort of known about the Strait of Hormuz for years This is probably the worst case scenario for The global economy and all this, the different stressors that it causes.

00:23:02: I think most people thought was sort of impossible to really materialize.

00:23:09: Certainly read a number of policymakers talking about modeling exercises where Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

00:23:19: There is nobody wants...

00:23:20: I heard the same thing That

00:23:22: they've done.

00:23:23: a lot of scenario plays but this was one of the plausible scenarios Not even plausible But it's one of these scenarios.

00:23:33: For example US officials have been gaming

00:23:37: Exactly And i sat in few meetings early on In those days of operation And a few people said externally that Iran would never impede traffic through the straight because it would hurt them too much.

00:24:02: But here we are... Here you

00:24:04: go, exactly!

00:24:07: Maybe curious to hear more about the company perspective?

00:24:11: I think what we're seeing also now is that a lot of companies are waking up to the reality how they were so affected by geopolitics, which was not maybe at least to the same extent before.

00:24:27: And many of them really are being effected by increasing energy prices disruptions in their supply chains etc... So if you go into this trade-off investment going away from the green agenda.

00:24:41: And so I do understand, really there's a part of me that understands if it is very immediate exposure to something you've got deal with... From business perspective.

00:24:53: because otherwise If he can't make ends meet then There's nothing we could also do in terms of the Green Agenda and longer term.

00:25:02: but i think sometimes just get.

00:25:05: There's a part of me that gets like, a little anxious or frustrated inside when I feel everything is now defense.

00:25:11: Everything is geopolitics and then kind all the investments into sustainability... And i'm exaggerating.

00:25:18: but almost all investments are gone.

00:25:22: But as said it sometimes you know just really urgent priority.

00:25:27: in reality companies need to grapple with From company point-of-view.

00:25:32: how should they and could they grapple both agendas?

00:25:37: Yeah, absolutely sustainability is just that's in our DNA and yeah It still is now.

00:25:44: That said we have actually had to adjust The way we talk about the advantages of offshore wind So that hasn't been sort of well you know We don't need to talk about sustainability anymore or it's not important.

00:26:02: There are a lot of different ways that we still do that.

00:26:06: But we have had to make space.

00:26:09: Just just as I talked about that sort of trilemma security competitiveness and green agenda how policy makers You know speaking points in policy positions have all shifted To great place more emphasis on security and competitiveness.

00:26:24: It's actually an opportunity for us, but it has been an adjustment for us to think smarter About how we talk about offshore wind in a way resonates with policymakers.

00:26:41: It's interesting how even you guys have had to tweak the narrative, what is top of mind for everyone out there?

00:26:52: I wonder do you have any perspectives on other companies who don't necessarily sit in this inner section and also providing a solution for the energy security question.

00:27:06: Are there ways that companies can continue pursuing their sustainability commitments while also building resilience to all of these external shocks?

00:27:18: Yeah, I think...I think the answer to that certainly varies across the spectrum.

00:27:25: The sort of case that stands out when thinking about, is more in the heavy industry sector or other types of companies that are quite heavily reliant on energy inputs as a cost driver.

00:27:49: As a resilience driver.

00:27:52: and so I think many companies understandably often fall back to Okay, what is where does inertia take us?

00:28:05: What is the least cost option tomorrow rather than thinking about You know okay.

00:28:13: Well maybe what is the The least costs hopefully but at least least volatile and most predictable options over the coming years with respect to energy.

00:28:30: And what we're seeing now in Germany and other parts of the EU where many companies are speaking very vocally about The risks of demand destruction having to shut down production lines, and lay people off due either higher costs of energy related inputs or shortages and feedstocks.

00:29:02: For the vast majority of industrial production, there are technological alternatives that can be done through electrification.

00:29:14: There are some exceptions I will say but the vast-majority...there are existing commercially available alternatives to shift energy inputs for industrial production to renewable energy technologies.

00:29:29: And so that all, you know.

00:29:33: That does cost money upfront in many cases but over time it can be less expensive and certainly is less volatile and builds a more predictable business case.

00:29:47: Governments can support those kinds of transitions with innovative financial mechanisms happen and I know some of that is happening in Europe.

00:30:01: Yeah, but it's just something that crisis after crisis-after-crisis...I think It's just going to accelerate more long term thinking about resilience.

00:30:15: And then another area of course this Just supply chain mapping and having a better understanding Of where stuff is coming from further down in supply chains Whereas right now, I think most companies have a very clear line of sight on there.

00:30:32: Tier one supplies maybe tier two but in a complicated supply chain set up depending upon the sector and business it can be very challenging to sort

00:30:47: of

00:30:47: unlock the transparency necessary.

00:30:50: It

00:30:56: is true that it's upfront investment and work, some money to put those things into place.

00:31:07: I think was an interesting point you're making of this like are we looking for the benefits tomorrow or in a few years time?

00:31:15: because i think thats where also see alot the tensions between, for example investments in climate action or sustainability being in companies.

00:31:24: And of course if you're operating quarterly profit system then you are living at an intersection with some contradicting incentives right?

00:31:38: The World Economic Forum when they publish their Global Risk Report report every year.

00:31:47: So they survey a bunch of leaders across different sectors around the world, and then do this ranking.

00:31:53: What are short-term risks?

00:31:55: And what is long term risk?

00:31:56: or what's top of mind for all people who have leaders in the world?

00:32:01: For example again we saw that on the long-term risk we see many climate related risks into.

00:32:10: I think it's... The Top three are only climate related But they don't sit so high in the short term risks.

00:32:19: And if that has been the case for a few years now, when do those long-term risk actually become the short-term?

00:32:32: If we always invest kind of like fighting the fires which are at the short terms would make sense to an extent.

00:32:40: but you know... We need to find balance or companies need to find a balance because otherwise, typically long-term risks are even bigger in their magnitude.

00:32:51: But of course you can't overlook the immediate risk side there and that's tricky ballots to find.

00:32:58: Yeah That is super good point.

00:33:00: I mean it so hard to solve that problem right?

00:33:05: You almost need like one pager company gets and it says, okay next year these six species will go extinct or Next Year You know the these rainforests that provide all this ecosystem benefits.

00:33:23: That feed into your supply chain They'll disappear.

00:33:26: And so This should now be a short term risk.

00:33:29: of course thats never going to happen but It's they don't see Or its just not clear enough what the short-term risks are because it's happening, of course gradually.

00:33:43: The

00:33:44: long term risk?

00:33:45: The long-term risk is just accumulating and shifting over time slowly In some cases you know with extreme weather events.

00:33:54: in other things It's a little more sudden and acute.

00:33:57: yeah

00:33:58: but that I mean That's of course as well known why climate changes often considered the most wicked problem.

00:34:06: because there's the collective action problem.

00:34:09: There is, you know... The slow burning challenge that mounts over time and isn't really compatible with human prioritization and hierarchies of need in all these things.

00:34:26: so it just... And then he put into a corporate setting.

00:34:32: It is not there, as you said with the quarterly reports.

00:34:35: Like it's just not a system that fits for purpose...

00:34:41: Yeah!

00:34:43: And I guess what i've been frustrated about or concerned about then to seeing this increase volatility and increased insecurity from all these geopolitical changes If anything, decreasing our ability or company's ability to try and look beyond the short term.

00:35:10: And even though they're especially in energy question there might be more incentives or reasons for doing so but I think it is a big...I don't know if its mental kind of like cognitive challenge?

00:35:32: What is it really?

00:35:34: But, It's a challenge for sure.

00:35:38: And I guess that probably goes back to the old quote in The Long Term will all be dead and so people don't necessarily think about The long term So much In way.

00:35:51: That drives their actions Urgently.

00:35:55: They tend To Think About Tomorrow.

00:36:01: many countries where you have, including in my own country and the United States.

00:36:08: You know growing inequality right?

00:36:10: So you have constant more concentrated wealth And that leaves a lot of people when I go home.

00:36:18: I mean i notice...I do notice a difference over The years Where I can feel like see it on People's faces.

00:36:27: they're struggling

00:36:29: Yeah

00:36:30: day-to-day in a much more Common way than I used to and so when you think about You know that situation, and if you are just struggling to get by day today Then it makes absolute sense.

00:36:48: That your focus is on

00:36:50: Tomorrow.

00:36:50: what can i do tomorrow?

00:36:52: Yeah or even good

00:36:54: get my kid school.

00:36:59: So that does not help.

00:37:01: No, totally.

00:37:05: I am also always curious than asking people who work with these extremely complex topics and sometimes even gloomy topics how do you personally feel like?

00:37:19: How do you feel otherwise in what kind of gives you hope and meaning and purpose.

00:37:26: Yeah...I have to be honest my mood on that.

00:37:30: It changes from day to day.

00:37:33: And it sort of changes based on who I'm talking with, what I'm listening to where I am in the world physically and so that can shift pretty dramatically Just sort of interacting with normal people, where I get a little grounded again.

00:38:07: If i'm at home With my longtime childhood friends and just being reminded that People are really You know ninety five percent out to Make the world a better place for their families communities for their children and that's a shared humanity across countries around the world.

00:38:41: I mean, but that's not something unique to one culture or another.

00:38:46: yeah And so it's very easy to get caught up in the doom and gloom.

00:38:52: i've certainly been guilty of getting overwhelmed by some the new cycle taking over these days.

00:39:02: But, you know there's just so much hard work being done by people and many good intentions that I think at end of day will carry things in a positive direction.

00:39:28: something that is really powerful and I think, will also continue to move things forward.

00:39:35: When you have on one hand a status quo fossil fuel based system thats decades old its very mature the cost curves are not coming down and compare it relatively immature technologies where the cost curves are coming down on wind and solar, in storage.

00:40:00: And you have new technologies that are on the horizon perpetually but one day will be actually with us whether

00:40:11: it's

00:40:12: modular nuclear technology or fusion or geothermal.

00:40:19: You add all up against what is I think objectively a pretty and perfect, an often damaging system with fossil fuels that of course has created a lot of modern opportunities and convenience.

00:40:35: But I think we're getting to a place where purely on economic terms the suite of other solutions is just gonna be too hard to ignore And hopefully they will prevail sooner rather than later.

00:40:53: but it's not going a smooth ride all the time.

00:40:59: Yeah, in the end I guess running back to your first point it is also people taking those decisions and people developing these technologies and innovations maybe even inventing new innovations.

00:41:17: that really resonates with me as well like exposing myself remembering there are vast majority of Do want to do good and have massive capacity in potential.

00:41:30: that I think that it just gives nice hope because at least personally, sometimes feel It's so easy to fill you know small and insignificant When it feels like there is a handful of people in the world who are taking shots at each other And then just having a massive impact on the current and future reality of so many people.

00:41:54: easy to get cynical, not only about the state of the world but also what's the impact that you can have personally on that.

00:42:01: And I think that leads many people too withdraw because if there is a difference we could make why would you bother really?

00:42:12: Yeah and i think thats it!

00:42:14: Thats'a good time in one life you know.

00:42:26: zoom back in from my global view, which is sort of my job

00:42:32: and

00:42:32: come back to Thinking okay.

00:42:35: You know that's all stuff.

00:42:38: as he said I can't control but when you bring it back to the community whether its one neighbor or It's yeah The people you interact with near where you live on a regular basis you know, an NGO that you work on locally or contribute to do volunteer work.

00:43:02: That really for me just helps kind of check my doom and gloom And no again remind myself I can make a positive difference.

00:43:15: It really matters even if it's not so easy.

00:43:21: I

00:43:23: think i've had to make some work in making peace with the fact that you can't necessarily affect everything, but uh... You can still potentially do something and also at a smaller scale effect.

00:43:36: Um..I Think like local politics Local communities Local initiatives are very underrated and underestimated.

00:43:46: A lot of local initiatives have actually massive impact On the very immediate surroundings and immediate effect on people's health, for example.

00:44:01: And then you just need to believe that if there is enough communities out there who all of them can take care of their immediate surroundings Then... You know?

00:44:10: That's how you could also in a way heal the world.

00:44:13: But I'm up although it can be frustrating because you can't control what goes beyond your community

00:44:22: But it does add up, that's for sure.

00:44:24: And then we can still vote.

00:44:26: or those of us who can vote and live in insistence where you have more systemic leverage than also avenues to pursue?

00:44:37: Exactly!

00:44:39: So I think there is a lot potential for doom & gloom but we kind-of managed to round this up on rather positive and hopeful note...

00:44:51: I think so

00:44:53: Both personally, but I think also structurally and societally with the security in climate changes converging.

00:45:03: But as always there's still a lot of work to be done.

00:45:08: that maybe not something you're afraid off?

00:45:11: Yeah!

00:45:11: And it is really helpful just for people who have conversations like this whether they are inconvenient or convenient.

00:45:23: But you know, this time speaking with you certainly helped clarify some of these ideas in my mind and help me... Same.

00:45:33: ...clarify a little bit more.

00:45:37: what does bring me hope and optimism at some challenging times?

00:45:43: So I've very much enjoyed it.

00:45:47: Thank You same.

00:45:48: thanks so much for sharing both your knowledge as well, is your personal take on things.

00:45:54: Thanks so much for coming on board!

00:45:56: Thank you so much guys.

00:45:57: it's really been a pleasure.

00:46:10: Okay I'm just gonna count to three and then i'll start.