How do you navigate climate guilt and flying? with Fred Baker

00:00:11: Hi, and welcome back to Inconvenient Chats.

00:00:14: This week, I was lucky to get to spend an hour with Fred Baker as a sustainability strategy consultant here in Denmark.

00:00:43: To discuss our personal relationships to flying.

00:00:47: We both have tried to cut down on personal carbon footprints from flying but haven't been able to so fully.

00:00:54: So we got together to discuss the feeling of guilt that we still choosing to take the plane every now and then, but also whether that is really productive.

00:01:10: And how should we even think about these things?

00:01:13: Then guide our actions.

00:01:15: as always if you have any questions comments or topic recommendations You can write me at kaisaadinconvenientchats.com.

00:01:22: Please subscribe and switch on automatic downloads.

00:01:26: Let's go into the episode.

00:01:27: I hope.

00:01:27: enjoy Fred Baker.

00:01:55: welcome to inconvenient chats.

00:01:58: I'm very good, thank you.

00:02:00: How are you?

00:02:02: Also a great thanks!

00:02:04: Really happy to have here with me today.

00:02:08: We know each other through some common friends But what we also have in common is that both working sustainability.

00:02:15: Just wanted kind of kick it off by asking if they could see few words.

00:02:20: how do end up there?

00:02:22: Yeah of course My journey into sustainability has been a slightly long and winding journey.

00:02:30: probably started at school, was always interested in geography the natural world.

00:02:36: And grew up on countryside felt quite attached to nature around me but I think maybe that point i wouldn't have called myself sustainably engaged.

00:02:49: then i studied for my undergrad landscape architecture, which had this kind of tie to sustainability.

00:02:56: It was about making our public spaces greener and more pleasant-to-live in... And I think that's when my eyes were opening up what sustainability really meant!

00:03:08: ...and i became very interested in renewable energy at the time….

00:03:12: …and trying to design these urban spaces with renewable energy incorporated into them but found that I was actually trying to create a field which didn't really exist, sort of blending being a designer and an engineer.

00:03:28: So then decided it would be good idea go find out more about how renewable energy works and studied a master's in renewable energy supply-and-demand management at this very interesting university in Wales called the Centre for Alternative Technology.

00:03:47: They only run five courses.

00:03:49: They are like behavior change, sustainable food, sustainable architecture and then some energy courses as well.

00:03:58: It was a very different Astali experience.

00:04:01: I'd gone to Edinburgh for my undergrad which is quite an economical kind of... Russell Group Uni in the UK.

00:04:11: And then this place was very left field and a completely different set of people that I'd never really interacted with before, and it massively opened my eyes up to what sustainability is at its core.

00:04:27: This place had started because there was... A community living here in Wales decided they wanted fully off grid and they found this abandoned slate quarry.

00:04:40: And we're like, We're going to go live

00:04:42: there.".

00:04:42: They started creating their own energy in their own food.

00:04:46: This kind of then gathered lots of momentum... ...and they started opening up a visitor center.. ..and then I started teaching these courses from the mid-seventies.... ...and now have all these masters' courses so very different approach sustainability and studying.

00:05:06: And that I think is when the bug kind of got me on my eyes, what opened up...and then you start seeing what sustainability really means.

00:05:13: it's hard to look back i think.

00:05:17: Yeah wow!

00:05:18: Then you ended up in Copenhagen some time ago but originally from the UK?

00:05:22: Exactly yeah.

00:05:24: so I was working at London for a Sustainability Consultancy.

00:05:30: So my whole career so far has been in sustainability.

00:05:38: That's cool, how have you enjoyed Copenhagen?

00:05:41: I love it!

00:05:45: It is a great city and very different to London.

00:05:48: but there are things that i felt like was missing in London the ease of transport...

00:05:56: I

00:05:57: feel time-rich living here which is big difference Jan, it's a beautiful city.

00:06:04: I think Copenhagen is the City of Trends so there are always certain things that come up and everyone does them And i think winterpaving has definitely been one recently.

00:06:17: So you & me also met in a sauna not too long ago Which was actually where this conversation started.

00:06:26: We talked about the podcast and inconvenient topics.

00:06:31: I asked you what would be your inconvenient topic if you had to choose one or something and You mentioned flying.

00:06:41: I did.

00:06:42: Can you say a little bit more?

00:06:45: Yeah, of course.

00:06:46: uh i think we We all are very conscious Of the environmental impact of flying And it has been Something on my personal kind of agenda that i was trying To limit myself from doing as much, maybe I was before or potentially going to do.

00:07:05: And... ...I think it is often something that when you work in sustainability where you have sustainable values.. ..that your are often critiqued on your flying patterns and i think its even more come into focus now for me living abroad my family & friends being back in the UK and their kind of needs go back there.

00:07:28: Also, my girlfriend's family live in France and so there is another reason to travel.

00:07:33: So I think as much of how did I originally set out for myself maybe four or five years ago that was going take one return flight a year?

00:07:42: That has not been the case for last few years And this kind of internal dialogue with me about whether i can justify it adds up to being something significant on the bigger picture.

00:08:01: or is that just somewhere I need more control of?

00:08:04: because it's one of my biggest personal contributors.

00:08:20: There there's so many different things that go into it.

00:08:32: And yeah, I guess there is a lot of inconvenience in kind like confronting yourself with some of those topics and then trying to find the balance between Living your life and then tryn't you live aligned?

00:08:42: With your values.

00:08:45: So say yes please Let's try to unpack that just a little bit.

00:08:53: It's probably no news for anyone that we know that flying is one of the most carbon-intensive modes of transport, that is indeed kind like the inconvenience or discomfort you mentioned.

00:09:04: That many people feel maybe guilty about... Or just a bit uncomfortable about?

00:09:13: Also one other things that people are first judged on similar to dietary patterns and meat consumption.

00:09:23: Looking at some numbers flying accounts for two point five percent of global carbon or greenhouse gas emissions, which is relatively low.

00:09:34: I think one could say compared to something like the build environment what makes flying... The difficult and more challenging issue from our perspective it's that this share so low because its few of us who actually get take the plane.

00:09:53: So you are a part of that.

00:09:56: ten percent off the privileged Well, citizens who take flights or maybe even the three percent.

00:10:04: The global population will take regular flights.

00:10:07: so it's a relatively small class of privilege privileged citizens that get to do and off course you know they the wealthier people People get them more.

00:10:20: there is going to be flying So this is probably gonna Be one of the sectors as Going To have bigger emissions in the future.

00:10:28: So there's also on a more structural systemic level, There are some further complications beyond your own personal footprint thoughts?

00:10:41: Yeah I totally agree and i think it is something that we increasingly feel like its almost human right to access flying.

00:10:56: Because it exists, we should take it.

00:10:59: And I think... We've also spoken a bit about what are the justifications for flying?

00:11:06: Whether that's whether you're seeing family or if its work Or going on holiday Does make a difference does help to justify in our heads.

00:11:15: When almost the emissions don't care The reason your'e flying They will omit anyway.

00:11:25: If we're talking about absolute terms, then... Then we should definitely be conscious about our flying patterns regardless of the reason.

00:11:32: Um But obviously internally We have our emotions about why we want to go into different places than see different people.

00:11:43: It is do you ever feel guilty?

00:11:46: About taking a plane?

00:11:49: Definitely and there's some irony in that title of their podcast.

00:11:55: flying is very convenient and it becomes easier to fly.

00:12:05: And I think we also have this relationship with time, our time off how we see getting into the destination... We want do that as quickly as possible just when you get there then enjoy your destination When you clock off from work, that's your time-off has already started.

00:12:28: You don't have to see the travelling as just another task... ...to enable you then get into a place where you can start to relax.

00:12:36: Yeah How would you describe your own lying?

00:12:39: and if how it has changed?

00:12:42: The way that you think about flying If you try to moderate in certain ways?

00:12:52: It's been interesting I think particularly at last two years where I with my flying frequency increased a lot because i was in a long-distance relationship and so I was flying regularly back and forth from London, Copenhagen.

00:13:08: And...and So I was constantly questioning whether I could justify that?

00:13:13: When it's for a relationship It feels like you're scoring different metrics than if it is just for holiday.

00:13:25: Now I'm living in Copenhagen, which is great and kind of cuts out that aspect.

00:13:28: But it means that then also fly home for family and friends And there's that frequency.

00:13:36: so i think my flying patterns to my new lifestyle My new life situation of living abroad and I haven't fully found my comfortable position yet But it's something that I'm super conscious of.

00:13:57: There is also important differentiation between short-haul and long-haul flights, long haul which by far the most carbon intensive And at least lots my flying patterns are short haul flights.

00:14:14: but then there's another conversation around frequency.

00:14:18: Frequency of flying as well.

00:14:20: we've spoken a bit about Before and And also I think acknowledging some of the progress that's been made in The emissions intensity Of flying just in there.

00:14:34: It was looking at the UK Emission factor.

00:14:37: so they're kind of carbon-intensity Kilometer are flying for an economy short haul flight, and in the last ten years it decreased by twenty four percent.

00:14:48: So from twenty fifteen to twenty five is decreased by Twenty Four percent which Is good progress.

00:14:54: There's no kind of denying that, and I think a lot of that has come from efficiencies in the engines.

00:15:01: but at the same time i think my flying patterns have increased by far more than twenty-four percent!

00:15:09: And so there is also discussion...and it's to your statistic.

00:15:14: you started or opened the podcast with is very small, but every year we're taking more and more flights whether that's as individual or the global population.

00:15:28: And so then you kind of have this difficulty with.

00:15:32: yes maybe... The impact on an individual flight is decreasing But our global contribution has increased to increase in frequency.

00:15:42: It feels a little bit like the Jevons paradox where whenever if you do any efficiency gains on something that doesn't necessarily or that often doesn't lead to a reduction in the absolute consumption, but it actually just leads an increase in the frequency.

00:15:59: A hundred percent!

00:16:00: Yeah I reference that paradox quite a lot in sustainability...I think its true for all sorts of progressives.

00:16:11: You mentioned at the beginning when you were maybe a few years younger..you had like a stricter way thinking about this?

00:16:21: Um, and of course your life situation now is different.

00:16:26: Is there also something else that has changed?

00:16:28: Do you maybe feel like because we're working sustainability or the fact that you work in sustainability uh required for you to move to Copenhagen?

00:16:37: Uh That Also comes at the expense of your family being further away And then trying to add things up to a whole Make more sense?

00:16:49: Instead of trying to look at your flying patterns in isolation.

00:16:54: Yeah, good question!

00:16:55: I think when i first set that kind of boundary for myself the one return flight a year... ...I think it maybe stuck to that for two years and I think it was also at a time where my eyes had been open up to sustainability.. ..and my own personal impact around me and I was trying to sort-of take more control off that.... step.

00:17:19: and that was also when I was cutting out a lot of meat from my diet, particularly red meat.

00:17:24: Yeah trying to fly less sort be much more conscious about things than I was purchasing.

00:17:31: And then i think after awhile and im sure I've spoken with friends who have gone on this journey is they realise their own individual contributions haven't seem made an impact globally?

00:17:48: I'm sure you remember when BP developed the idea of your own personal carbon footprint and pushing their accountability onto individuals.

00:17:57: Yeah, that's a petroleum company right?

00:18:02: Big oil yeah they hired a marketing company came up with this idea of the Personal Carbon Footprint And You Could Go On Their Website And Calculate Exactly How Big Your Personal Contribution Is guilty about that, and then you make choices about how to change rather than the industries around you.

00:18:22: The system changing?

00:18:24: And I think...the longer i've worked in sustainability and-and the more i've tried to have a personal impact..I don't see the correlation between us as individuals making these choices and seeing big global shifts.

00:18:42: Is that

00:18:43: a cynical view?

00:18:45: It's it can be a cynical view and I think you could also have seen as uh, way of excusing my own patterns.

00:18:52: And i'm conscious of that As well.

00:18:55: try to reflect on where I sit with That but there is... To me what I am settling more On Is the time & energy is better spent Focusing on either My work or voting patterns or how I invest my money, or having those conversations around me.

00:19:20: Yes it's a big part of my footprint and i'm definitely still conscious of that in trying to reduce it.

00:19:26: but i think its also easy to spend a lot time and energy like in your head balancing out these things feeling guilty for missing bigger life events For not staying in touch with friends, for missing family or not taking that opportunity to explore another culture which sort of has these maybe untangible, unquantifiable benefits.

00:19:53: Which is also something I'm finding about living here.

00:19:55: it's like yes i can quantify how many flights i take a year to go back to the UK and what the impact of that is but its very difficult to quantify what kind life experiences are for living abroad How interacting with different cultures in people opens up my mind and changes my perspective for the better.

00:20:17: But at the same time, it's a very absolute problem.

00:20:22: Emissions are a very absolutely problem.

00:20:23: we have to reduce our emissions.

00:20:26: so when you put back into that context then I still want to have personal responsibility Also not being complicit in those systems.

00:20:46: Yeah, I think it is a tricky balance indeed because the inner way as you're saying which parts of You kind of just chilling out little bit on the whole individual footprint agenda Is its complacency and to what extent?

00:21:03: It's actually just The right thing to do so that you can reshift and redirect your energy two things that would and could actually have more systemic impact.

00:21:16: And I guess then the question is really, where does that excess energy go?

00:21:19: Where do you put that energy that you get from doing that trip seeing your family and so... So maybe there's actually a bit more of an answer than whether to take a flight or not.

00:21:33: Yeah definitely it's also constantly evolving space.

00:21:39: i think we're living in time.

00:21:44: now We are, we're confronted by all these opportunities on a increasingly more frequent basis through social media or the people in our circles.

00:21:59: Or what were pushed from marketing campaigns and I think it becomes harder to resist those urges to go and travel

00:22:11: abroad.

00:22:13: but at the same time We need to be more conscious about the opportunities we have, to travel in our local areas and then are... In our own countries.

00:22:24: And getting to know our own country's more I think particularly for- The one where i feel most guilty is when im doing it purely for leisure Like if Im going on a holiday.

00:22:38: Because If taking a break from work or decompressing Then I don't have to do that abroad.

00:22:51: I didn't have go... ...to another country, it's perfectly possible where i could go an hour up the coast in Copenhagen and have a nice time there as lots of Danes do.

00:23:05: And about being conscious why we take these decisions to go abroad for holidays.

00:23:12: I think they find easier to justify family & friends and those kind of bigger life events.

00:23:21: But when it comes to leisure, I think that's the one where i'm most self-critical because... The whole thing feels self indulgent.

00:23:31: you're taking a flight so then pamper yourself come back and supposedly feel refreshed.

00:23:37: You could have possibly done that more domestically or you could've spent traveling in different ways.

00:23:45: Most recent alternative travel was going to Oslo by the ferry, not the least carbon intensive experience but definitely less than flying and it took um fourteen hours or fifteen hours or something.

00:24:00: And we just saw that as part of the trip... That-that-that travel experience..That journey was already a part of The holiday or The break!

00:24:09: Um....And that is also testament to the facilities on that ferry.

00:24:15: It's very comfortable There was good cabins and you could enjoy that.

00:24:20: It wasn't... Yeah, it wasn't uncomfortable in that sense.

00:24:25: So yeah I have solid to definitely seek these more alternative longer slower travel Where i can And just try and feel like how that feels different and see them as part of the adventure Of wherever your going Than seeing is a piece of admin To get to destination.

00:24:47: Yeah, I know.

00:24:48: That probably is the key change to really enjoy these different modes of travel more than flying because flying is just so convenient as you said yourself Because it's so fast if you see that at a cost in terms of time Of course It Is The Best Alternative.

00:25:08: I was in Italy and took train all the way down then back And actually loved Because for me, sitting on the train is a way of just having time for my thoughts.

00:25:18: I was working little bit and then reading books For once i had to actually answer all my messages Speaking of connecting with friends.

00:25:28: so that's different.

00:25:31: but it takes four days out your schedule.

00:25:34: So you've got be fine or not find a way to make it meaningful for you, whether that's in my case.

00:25:44: That was just having a little bit of me time and after like intense weeks at work It was actually really nice Just before sit down not be able do anything.

00:25:55: Yeah

00:25:56: But I mean something that i sometimes think is if we increasingly And you are now with both working office jobs in our field, for example with AI coming in.

00:26:11: I mean it's always been intense but i feel like its just getting more and more fast paced all the time The pressure that you have for example work um...I think then increases also your need For decompressing.

00:26:25: And so In a way You Also Do Understand Why?

00:26:29: You know..i Think Many People Feel Like They Need For That Holiday Then For Need To Be Really Far Away.

00:26:37: And I guess there again, we come to this.

00:26:40: Is it an individual problem or is a systemic problem?

00:26:45: Or structural problems?

00:26:46: and maybe in this case like the roots are really more in these structures at least on extent then they lead too our individual needs being in a certain way... ...and of course exacerbated by everything you see on social media.

00:27:01: Yeah for sure!

00:27:07: finding ourselves in a pattern of wanting these experiences, whether it's break from work.

00:27:13: We want them as immediately possible and we wanna be transitioning from being this intense working environment to okay now I'm relaxed on holiday... And i think that is true for so many other different scenarios in our lives like can you wake up?

00:27:33: On your phone probably within ten, fifteen minutes and like we don't allow ourselves these breaks.

00:27:38: And

00:27:38: your brain goes...

00:27:39: ...and you're brain starts yeah exactly explodes and looking for that dopamine hit.

00:27:46: I think that's true of a lot the way where experience life at the moment.

00:27:52: seeing that travel to another place as an opportunity to decompress is also just a nice way of justifying that travel.

00:28:05: And I think you have to, if you were scoring it flying versus alternative travel purely on cost and on environmental impact then there becomes or convenience maybe than the flying probably wins in most cases... You take time and the convenience over the environmental impacts but Other met to like start putting other kind of personal preferences in.

00:28:32: Like I came actually maybe this does allow me To Finish, this book that i was reading or understand a bit more about the place That i was going?

00:28:40: By taking that slow travel Or just Taking A bit Of time between unwinding but from One being In one intense Place to Being on your Your trip i think can also be A nice way of Justifying that alternative Travel.

00:28:55: But i Also Think there's i think people are so frustrated with how expensive or slow, those other alternative travels are.

00:29:05: and I think we often forget that they're competing on almost quite different economic terms because flying has a very small infrastructure requirement.

00:29:20: They have the airports globally... I was doing some research yesterday.

00:29:27: Globally there airports, roughly four thousand airports in the world.

00:29:33: And in the US alone a hundred and fifty-thousand service stations for cars just to kind of put the difference In terms of infrastructure.

00:29:40: obviously an airport fuels and provides A lot more services too.

00:29:45: um...in very intense area versus a service station.

00:29:47: but Just comparing road transport To air transport The infrastructure that was required is night and day.

00:29:53: You don't need any roads to fly you.

00:29:55: just the skies are there, don't need to maintain them.

00:29:58: Same for railways

00:30:00: and same for rails.

00:30:00: so I think it's going to be difficult to think that the rail and road are gonna be able to compete with flying um... And i think also flying has become such a big part of our lives in our kind of expectations of our quality of life how different that is in the global north versus the global south.

00:30:29: And as the Global South continues to develop, entitlement for flying will also grow and need for flying would also grow with very strong correlation between GDP growth and flights.

00:30:43: It's a problem not going away.

00:30:46: therefore.

00:30:48: this goes back part of why I am trying less pressure off my individual carbon footprint and put more of the pressure on there.

00:30:56: The system change is because I think it's, It's not a pattern.

00:31:01: that's kind of a motor transport that's going to disappear.

00:31:04: we're not suddenly gonna cap flying.

00:31:06: i don't see that happening.

00:31:07: so We need to push for those flights To be more sustainable And that's coming in.

00:31:13: you've seen In that stat about their reductions in the last ten years About.

00:31:17: the trend Is positive but further and faster, more widespread.

00:31:22: The question is always Is that fast enough?

00:31:26: Yeah

00:31:27: exactly but I think often this a conversation people have also been having for well over decade about the impacts of flying And how we feel about it It's important to talk some progress made already like individual flight carbon intensity reduction.

00:31:50: Also the EU now has a mandate on introducing SAF, sustainable aviation fuel into the supply of airports' fuel mix.

00:32:00: so it'll be seventy percent by twenty fifty and sustainable aviation fuels per litre roughly reduces emissions by eighty percent per liter compared to jet fuel.

00:32:09: So there's good things out there And I think that the aviation sector is actually going in relatively good direction, and I think airports are working very hard on this.

00:32:22: The airport have quite little influence over the airlines but they both need each other to exist as a comic model.

00:32:32: so they're increasingly trying to work with the airlines to bring down those emissions and create incentives for more sustainable fuels at these airports pushing the airlines to develop engines that can take more capacity on those fuels.

00:32:49: or look at hydrogen flights, we'll look at battery flights.

00:32:53: So there is progress being made.

00:32:55: so I don't think it's all doom and gloom but they are also some hard truths that... It's not happening fast enough.

00:33:04: and specific example only in relation to EU and I think the EU makes up maybe a third of global flights.

00:33:13: Um, so there's also that to weigh up.

00:33:17: But I think it is a start at least and i think that filters through.

00:33:23: It has been good point.

00:33:24: try not see the issue as binary one but trying those different caveats The technology progress being made That still have to be made And still try develop further Because even if EU regulated individuals flight taking As you said be reversed on the global scale.

00:33:44: So there has to be something that's going to be changed in the activity itself.

00:33:48: and then of course, I think at a personal level maybe instead of trying approaching it through guilt although i think guilt can also like a useful feeling sometimes because i think it helps you keep yourself and check

00:34:02: definitely.

00:34:03: but i think maybe on on that front there is just something of like trying to see the alternatives for yourself You know, also help yourself to make feel better about the way you live your life and trying to explore these different alternatives.

00:34:19: And try to find compromises that actually don't fill that much of a sacrifice.

00:34:25: I think That can be great!

00:34:27: Then off course not overindexing on Your flights only because there's other things might be easier for you than you could do anyway.

00:34:36: On top if you can alter your flying patterns and not try to see things so much as you know, either go all in or your dog going at all.

00:34:47: Yeah totally!

00:34:48: And that was also something I found with when i had this quota for one turn flight yeah...and then say okay the start of the year are gonna plan out where im gunna use that flight.

00:34:58: maybe ill take it in July whenever going on a certain trip..and then lock-in that flight and six months later another opportunity comes up Oh, wow.

00:35:10: Like oh like it's a family event or is the family emergency and then suddenly you're You've blown your individual quota And then you beat yourself up about that.

00:35:22: So yeah I think It's about funny balance But i think its also understanding About The impacts on the trends.

00:35:31: Being conscious of those Not the worst thing he can do but i think Its easy just to be complicit by not understanding.

00:35:40: I'm not being conscious about it.

00:35:43: and i think yeah, being conscious understanding why these kind of moral dilemmas come up in our heads.

00:35:54: And

00:35:55: maybe also they should come?

00:35:57: Yeah

00:35:58: Maybe the point is to get rid of them.

00:36:01: No exactly!

00:36:03: They almost at some extent act as a limit that I take.

00:36:12: And i have been trying more and more to say no, to that specific trip or like at least check myself and say do I need to take this trip?

00:36:21: Like is there someone that I feel like can justify... Or actually would rather just spend time in Copenhagen or whatever it might be.

00:36:32: We've also gone through this period where we judged each other on our choices And I think we're also living in a increasingly polarized world.

00:36:48: To have these very absolute thresholds, if how you judge each other feeds into that polarization

00:36:55: and

00:36:56: just generally need to be better at understanding other individual circumstances not judging on what you see externally.

00:37:10: We also are living in an economic period where people feel more squeezed and they're making decisions on cost.

00:37:18: And if that means you as a family want to take the return flight to Spain because it's saving you a thousand pounds on travel when it gets away, then... It becomes hard for them to judge someone from their perspective.

00:37:36: I actually wanted to ask about this How do you feel about holding others accountable?

00:37:41: or engaging others, commenting on other's flying for example.

00:37:47: I think it is also something that isn't discussed as maybe frequently at least in my circles a few years ago but i am trying to take the approach of first understanding why that person might take those flights and then talking about environmental impacts letting them make their own decisions, I guess.

00:38:14: Um...I think the Louis Theroux approach to understanding other people's positions is a good one and either say they're quiet but out loud or letting So presenting them with a facts and letting the make their own decision.

00:38:38: I think how does that happen in practice?

00:38:40: Do you like ask questions, like no How does that conversation look like

00:38:47: to?

00:38:47: good question i think right now it's something That i'm particularly conscious of for myself And so actually feel like i'm.

00:38:58: i asked less because when i reflect on my own patterns Right Now i don't feel in a position comment on other people's when I know that i'm sort of adjusting to this new uh, This new life living abroad and That means.

00:39:15: I'm taking more flights.

00:39:16: um so I feel like it's a difficult conversation To have and I think that's also maybe true with the going back to you Also one of your points around working in sustainability And flying at all and like how can you have these?

00:39:31: These views about Sustainability and work in it.

00:39:35: And also at the same time let yourself off on these other areas as a kind of double standards.

00:39:43: Yeah, I guess right now I would feel like I'm gonna be applying double standards if i was being super invasive into someone else's flight patterns.

00:39:57: So I haven't had that conversation actually for At least not in the last year.

00:40:04: But couldn't you just approach that in the same way as you were describing now, also approaching your own?

00:40:11: You can still inquire without being judgmental.

00:40:17: These individual behaviour topics are so sensitive and they're kind of like especially if you are people who maybe share slightly different views than then on their own.

00:40:28: I think It's easy to avoid them because you don't want, a small comment to be misunderstood and you don' t want there like conflict.

00:40:38: You do not wanna make it feel bad but I liked your point of this Louis Theroux type inquiry where...I think he is really good at posing questions in the non-judgmental way also pointing out some of the contradictions in people's patterns.

00:40:57: But, off course I think you're probably going to do it a way where don't take moral high ground and pretend know better because if this situation is equally guilty... ...of acting in contradictory ways?

00:41:10: Yeah but another aspect is talking positively about your experiences with alternative travel like your trip to Southern Europe.

00:41:21: And I think, you know explaining why that was so great and not doesn't even need to be in the same conversation as talking about flying but actually just sharing how you sort of positioned that in your head?

00:41:33: How have you then experienced it in reality?

00:41:37: There are increasing economic arguments about moving towards more sustainable modes or transport or more sustainable fuels at least for flying.

00:41:48: take the Iran crisis.

00:41:50: We haven't fully yet experienced, I think the impact on jet fuel that's going to have.

00:41:57: And whether we could be more protected and resilient using more sustainable fuels... ...whether thats short-haul battery flights which are theoretically possible for very short haul flights.. ..whether that is a sustainable aviation fuel for longer haul flights increasing their mix reducing exposure to shocks on the energy market for jet fuel, I think.

00:42:22: The way things are going... I think there's an increasing argument also from the economic point of moving towards more sustainable aviation as well.

00:42:36: so yeah it's a- And that

00:42:39: can hopefully accelerate their transition?

00:42:42: Yeah and then that sort becomes a moral conundrum too.

00:42:46: we don't want conflict in these areas that supply us, these things we're very dependent on.

00:42:53: But they do also pose as an opportunity to transition away.

00:42:58: They highlight the instability of dependence on those fuels.

00:43:05: And yes I think... I mentioned this statistics around sustained radiation fuel earlier and from short people will comment how necessarily have the ability to supply that volume of sustained aviation fuel, To meet That demand.

00:43:19: The projections are we can do it.

00:43:21: We can meet the twenty-thirty mandate Which I think is up to seven percent by that point Possibly a bit more but Right now its not.

00:43:33: It's a theoretical possibility that we Can Do the twenty fifty The seventy percent in twenty fifty And thats just EU.

00:43:39: so Yeah there also limits.

00:43:42: But i think the more that we make it a necessity, Decades and decades of infrastructure that has been invested in, it's not in their interest to see the market disappear from them.

00:44:22: So they're going want to rinse profits for as long as possible.

00:44:29: so I think there is a need put pressure on.

00:44:32: governments exist and support that transition.

00:44:41: And we need to make

00:44:42: it attractive for the big players who also have the infrastructure, to be able to do this development?

00:44:48: Exactly!

00:44:51: I think the political instability at the moment slows down the transition because businesses don't like uncertainty.

00:44:59: they want steady outlooks as long as possible...and if we can create a more consistent stable market particularly low carbon transition fuels, then I think that would be hugely beneficial in this journey to too-low carbon intensity flying.

00:45:20: And so I think... That's also why I focus more of my energy now on trying to enable the transition where i can rather than focusing.

00:45:31: I don't

00:45:38: know if you know the Dutch historian, Rutger Bergman.

00:45:44: He's written this book called Moral Ambition last year and he just had a really good point around saying instead of trying to minimise your impact on the world why wouldn't try to maximise?

00:45:59: You know, the impact that you have on the systems?

00:46:01: because if try to just like live perfectly and minimize your impact then might as well.

00:46:05: Just not having existed And it's actually quite snatch.

00:46:09: Yeah totally I think.

00:46:11: in sustainability we often talk about that footprint versus handprint scenario.

00:46:15: So what are?

00:46:16: the handprint is?

00:46:16: Like one of the positive Outputs.

00:46:18: so you're producing verses there The footprint being a negative and i think We As humans we also had this negative bias that we like to focus on.

00:46:29: the bad things are happening.

00:46:31: And I think, We would benefit a lot from putting just that little bit more energy into positives and trying contribute in that area than just focusing or minimising our negative impacts.

00:46:45: Yeah...I don't know if it's easier said then done but its definitely something you can consider?

00:46:50: Yea for sure!

00:46:53: It is definitely a journey Before these fuels come, we need to be conscious about our patterns today.

00:47:06: The concept of locked in carbons is obviously an issue and I think the first step it's just reflecting on what your patterns actually are indulgence, and adjusting those patterns.

00:47:31: And then also understanding about where you can apply pressure externally outside of your own patterns or whether that's who you vote for.

00:47:44: Yeah putting put in pressure on industry bodies Where possible I think is so important.

00:47:53: And I think as a positive story, i've worked with a few airports in my career and the airports are super conscious of these problems.

00:48:02: They're working really hard to push that... ...and people don't necessarily see it behind-the-scenes.

00:48:10: There's an association called ACA, The Airport Carbon Accreditation Scheme which you can go online where you can see which airports have got different standards.

00:48:22: The fact that even bad exists as a concept, yes.

00:48:24: Some people might say it's greenwashing but I think you first have to have that level of accountability before you develop the action and they are working hard on it.

00:48:36: But they're up against big market forces And big established corporates.

00:48:43: So its not easy.

00:48:44: As

00:48:46: positive... Positive

00:48:47: notes There is progress And I think, yeah.

00:48:51: To go back to the point around... The difference between emissions in twenty fifteen and in twenty twenty five In terms of their per-flight intensity.

00:48:59: like there is progress being made We're not comparing necessarily the same situation then as we are now.

00:49:07: But yes i think it's about frequency.

00:49:10: It seems to be a bigger problem than necessarily the individual flight.

00:49:15: Yeah No that was true.

00:49:17: Do you have any travel plans for summer?

00:49:21: I'm actually trying as much possible to stay in Copenhagen.

00:49:24: This is my first summer here, um so i'm really keen...I know everyone this whole concept that everyone goes away and July was completely alien to me.

00:49:34: it seems like that's the nicest time of year just..to be a city where you've got such good water access.

00:49:40: Um So I'm trying to stay here as much as possible And do some sailing.

00:49:45: uh yes!

00:49:47: I have a few flights that I am conscious off Um, but they I'm trying to focus those on there.

00:49:54: To do with a big birthdays and weddings in that kind of thing.

00:49:59: so we're trying to minimize it too.

00:50:01: That um Yeah what about you?

00:50:04: Sounds pretty good.

00:50:06: i'm also thinking Of staying Copenhagen for as much as I can because uh i have come to realize that the summer months are The best time to be here But might Also Have A return flight to Finland.

00:50:19: Yeah Makes sense.

00:50:21: Freddie, thanks so much for coming and sharing your thoughts.

00:50:25: We really enjoyed the conversation.

00:50:27: Yeah thank you very much for having me Really interesting conversation.

00:50:40: I find that buses are most inconvenient i think For long distance travel.

00:50:48: The bathroom facility is never great.

00:50:49: It's difficult to use them And it generally a more uncomfortable and slow experience.