How is culture shaped by fossil fuels? with Sakari Säynäjoki

00:00:05: Hi everyone and welcome to Inconvenient Chats.

00:00:14: in this podcast we discuss some difficult, somewhat uncomfortable topics concerning climate change society.

00:00:23: Today's episode I was joined by Sakare Sao-Neyoke a doctor or researcher an interdisciplinary environmental sciences at the University of Helsinki who researches energy transition through cultural and societal lens.

00:00:36: We discussed how over the past century Access to fossil fuels and the consequent widespread use of them have really set the foundations for societies, lifestyles in their way that they currently are.

00:00:48: And therefore also shaped our thinking culture.

00:00:52: For this reason energy transition should not be seen only as a technological challenge because transitioning away from fossil fuels will require cultural change.

00:01:04: There was A lot To impact there.

00:01:08: It's super interesting chat.

00:01:10: some moments that also really challenged me in my thinking with some discomfort, but ultimately I think i learned so much from our conversation and just really enjoyed having it with Sakari.

00:01:28: As always, if you have comments or topic recommendations You can write to me at kaizetinconvenientchats.com.

00:01:36: Please give a listen subscribe and leave a reading wherever you listened your podcast.

00:01:41: Let's go to the episode.

00:01:46: Saka re saone hake!

00:01:48: Welcome To Inconvenience Chats.

00:01:50: Thanks for having Me.

00:01:51: It is A big Pleasure To Have Here With My Today.

00:01:54: How Are You?

00:01:56: Good, good Waiting For The Summer To Arrive I'd Say Yeah Otherwise Otherwise it's nice, raining though.

00:02:04: Well your baits right now?

00:02:06: In Helsinki its been raining quite a bit.

00:02:09: so other than that It has been

00:02:11: nice.

00:02:11: Okay the Finnish summer is on its way but a bit late as always

00:02:18: As if yes, yeah Late and perhaps a little bit wet as well.

00:02:21: usually

00:02:23: We will be talking about you research today in fossil fuel civilisation And petrocultures among others.

00:02:30: Maybe before we go into this let me Just ask you for starters, what does the word inconvenience mean to you?

00:02:40: That's a tough one.

00:02:42: I guess it means something uncomfortable probably.

00:02:49: Inconvenience... It should be not that serious or something that is slight inconvenience like this combination of words usually comes together.

00:03:01: but in this context in the title of your show, Inconvenient Chats and looking at the topics that you've been talking about.

00:03:11: It kind of seems like The Opposite has a big inconvenience but yeah... And then there's the famous film by... Was it Al Gore?

00:03:25: That made the inconvenient truth or something like that which was I guess again supposed to be kinda like a mismatch between being a big inconvenient truth Something among those lines.

00:03:37: We were inspired by the show or that documentary.

00:03:41: in this one as well

00:03:43: I can imagine, yeah many have been!

00:03:46: For me often... The way i like to think about it is there are two layers of discomfort and one of them is psychological-emotional discomfort Maybe your beliefs being put into question Or you're called into question.

00:04:00: And then more structural material layer of discomfort, what we all often think about as maybe financial interest or material interests.

00:04:12: Powered interest in a perception of threat to that material position you hold right now.

00:04:19: and those things combined are often I guess can make us easily avoid certain topics?

00:04:29: Yeah indeed.

00:04:30: Convenient topics are probably the ones people tend not like talking.

00:04:37: Yeah, maybe I'm a little bit strange in that regard because the inconvenient topics we're about to discuss and you have discussed earlier on this show are basically the only things today.

00:04:48: Always talk about so... In that sense.

00:04:52: You know, inconveniences may be- yeah i don't know!

00:04:55: Maybe it's not that uncomfortable in the end or maybe just like making other people uncomfortable.

00:05:02: let's hope that is not the case.

00:05:04: I am glad you say that That's also been my experience that often this perception of discomfort and effort, threat.

00:05:16: Well maybe apart from the effort those are all only indeed perceptions And you can actually learn so much if in a way surrender to the inconvenience In certain topics.

00:05:28: but it does require Often a little bit of effort A little bit there can be a lot of interesting things that come out.

00:05:39: Absolutely!

00:05:41: Without further ado, then jumping into the topic which I think indeed is one of the biggest inconvenient chats we've had now in history... In short but sweet history for this podcast.

00:05:56: So Sakurai you're doing your PhD at the University of Helsinki.

00:06:00: Your research and teaching revolve around how dependent our societies are on fossil fuels.

00:06:08: And some words that appear in your research are fossil-filled civilization, social metabolism as well as fossil mentalities and petro culture?

00:06:20: I wonder is there a way of doing the elevator pitch off what it's at the core of you're research on?

00:06:25: what do these terms mean?

00:06:28: We sure they must be... How long does an elevator pitch like

00:06:32: thirty seconds from

00:06:34: then?

00:06:35: I guess so, let's hope it is not turning into a lecture but there will be maybe a skyscraper or elevator.

00:06:43: Anyway those are the concepts indeed and like you mentioned already by looking at the surface You may arrive to conclusion that these sound kind of grandiose The concepts But lets nevertheless take them one-by-one Like fossil field, civilization fossil civilization as however you prefer it.

00:07:12: It's a topic for the concept that seems to be propping up often, well maybe not THAT often but in many books on the topic of energy systems and especially energy history people like The concept of fossil civilization is supposed to capture the immense disturbing depth that fossil fuels and their influence has had on contemporary societies.

00:07:52: The concept I borrowed from Vaglav Smil, who's an energy scientist and historian-energy historian... ...the way i use it just to capture even though we call them feels are not just something to be burned in engines, but they're also that.

00:08:14: Something to be burnt on the engines and power facilities mostly to make electricity and heat.

00:08:26: But there is also material foundation of contemporary societies.

00:08:32: They all around us Not as feels or materials like our clothes and food, all the materials we use on a daily basis.

00:08:41: Basically all of that technology is through material symbiosis between energies and materials.

00:08:50: they're all somehow related and connected to fossil fuels.

00:08:54: so that's what the civilization part is supposed to capture.

00:08:59: it kind of elevates and somehow tries this room out from the concept but it's much more so of a foundation, of the whole civilization.

00:09:15: And then you had social metabolism as another

00:09:18: part?

00:09:18: Yeah!

00:09:18: It is part of same bundle.

00:09:21: I mean material dependencies and symbiosis.

00:09:26: they could be called include just things that we mentioned like nitrogen fertilizers which are produced from natural gas if also fuel and pesticides, which are basically all of them petrochemicals.

00:09:43: And the concept of social metabolism is quite... it's kind of like a systematic conceptualization of what all this means on a systemic level.

00:09:56: It sounds a little bit strange to speak of metabolism as a social fact because typically

00:10:03: we talk about in terms our bodies

00:10:06: Exactly.

00:10:06: It's kind of a metaphor also here.

00:10:10: You could think of societies as having a metabolism.

00:10:13: stuff comes in, we speak of inputs and stuff goes out with big outputs so that the whole of these material flows an energy flow into society under way that society is used them And then this stuff to be output Is what we call social metabolism?

00:10:35: it includes everything basically everything that happens in the material world.

00:10:39: We take stuff from the environment, like not least fossil substances but also stone metals biomass all sorts of stuff.

00:10:51: we use it somehow just like us humans when we eat something and then we use It And we produce stuff as societies.

00:11:00: we produced Not only waste But also buildings and roads And that sort of stuff, those are the outputs.

00:11:08: The social metabolism then is supposed to capture like a big systematic overall picture how societies use resources and what they make up them.

00:11:22: It's usually divided into three forms of Social Metabolism.

00:11:26: There's the Forager metabolism That foraging people have going on.

00:11:35: they usually just use biomass as it is, like without cultivating or without agriculture.

00:11:42: And then there's the second version which is the solar agrarian metabolism meaning that we control photosynthesis basically by cultivating plants, crops and... That's the gist of it!

00:11:59: Then third one in which have been living all our lives Many countries in the world have been living since at least a hundred years or so is the fossil metabolism, which is fundamentally different than two others.

00:12:17: Since it's not based on solar insulation like not that flux of sun we have daily and yearly basis but instead the buried sunlight millions of years before us That what fossil fuels are basically the remnants of millions or years of sunlight.

00:12:38: Yeah, and I think that is something we don't often think about like...I remember hearing that fact not too long ago And it kind of blew my mind to change something very fundamentally in a way for example oil or fossil fuels.

00:12:56: It's quite crucial because instead of living inside this planetary or local, I mean there are many levels to this.

00:13:08: Like biogeochemical cycles and bio... It has a biochemical and bio-geochemic also like different levels of cycles in the earth like nitrogen cycle and phosphorus cycle and so forth.

00:13:21: So instead of kind living inside as it had been called The solar income budget which is everything that sun affords us as it shines and brings down on Earth, we kind of dig from underneath the earth a one-off input.

00:13:44: And then base our societies in that one time input which can only be used once like literally when we pump out carbon into air.

00:13:53: so now this is already very fundamental difference.

00:14:04: What the research field then actually is, it consists virtually of mapping off material flows.

00:14:13: That's what societies produce and use.

00:14:17: where does it come from?

00:14:18: How much of it?

00:14:19: how was used?

00:14:20: Where does end up that sort of stuff?

00:14:22: very quantitative analysis quite detailed but extremely useful in trying to understand like the material reality of contemporary societies.

00:14:33: But I guess that's the... That wasn't really an elevator hitch, but it was about social metabolism.

00:14:40: It is a big topic which is hard to stuff into no matter how tall skyscraper elevators.

00:14:49: Then you also have this term called fossil mentalities in petro culture Which kind of I guess to me implies based on everything we've been describing now fossil fuels or the fossil fuel-fueled lifestyle is so omnipresent in ways that we operate and live our lives.

00:15:12: In The Current Day, it's not only about a material reality but there are also cultural elements to this.

00:15:22: Is that correct?

00:15:23: Yeah!

00:15:24: That was an idea like in A Nutshell.

00:15:25: I probably couldn't have put more briefly than myself.

00:15:32: The fossil mentality concept, I've taken it directly from a colleague Mathias Schmelzer who is based in Flensburg.

00:15:45: What he means by this and what i mean by this kind of like some sort of way general way of thinking an understanding that is premised on fossil fuels somehow And the petro culture concept is kinda like the step, one or at least two levels of abstraction higher from this fossil mentality concept that it's some sort about total culture defined by these presence and ubiquity of fossil fuels in our material lives.

00:16:27: It kind of strikes people often by surprise or somehow feels... I don't know unintuitive to people who speak of petro-culture than they immediately think things like private cars, but I'd often turn it around in a sense that wouldn't be quite strange if everything that is around us were suddenly changed and somehow defined or premiered by certain substances.

00:17:02: And that would have no influence on the ways we think and live.

00:17:06: I mean, of course it's quite... It is to be expected to say at least in our ways of thinking has been transformed as well As our lifestyles and everyday living Has been transformed.

00:17:21: So its actually anything but a surprise That this has really happened.

00:17:30: That that comes to my mind then is that indeed as you were describing it.

00:17:34: It actually sounds as a quite natural Thing in a way, but we We adapt our ways of thinking or where are shaped?

00:17:45: By environments.

00:17:47: what does the dilemma step-in?

00:17:51: Oh there's a problem.

00:17:52: I mean its Isn't somewhat self evident that we are pleased?

00:17:58: if you read the newspapers You would imagine that we have already gotten rid of fossil fuels and that's what many societies at least say they are trying to do, getting rid off fossil fuels.

00:18:09: And this is indeed we should be doing as quickly as possible.

00:18:13: it shouldn't have done in the years ago so yes thats a basic problem but were used for living in societies which are fundamentally based on fossil fuels.

00:18:29: We are accustomed to thinking that way as well.

00:18:32: And now we should suddenly, and I really mean suddenly when i say this like in historical terms.

00:18:38: the transition to fossil fuels was sudden.

00:18:41: It didn't take much more than a few hundred years at most But this time it should happen in a blink of an eye Like looking at any climate targets or anything like that with speaking of decades.

00:18:54: It's near impossible feat but it should have been unbelievably quickly.

00:19:01: So, there's your problem that if you lead a life in which everything you have and everything like are accustomed to is somehow shaped by fossil fuels then... You're bound to face many problems as you try get rid of them.

00:19:23: And so what I read between the lines… when we were talking in our previous conversations earlier that something you sometimes find misleading, the way we talk about climate change or energy transition is it's talked about as a technical and technological transition.

00:19:45: Or challenge?

00:19:48: I mean yeah... annoyance that everyone who is working with this petro-culture stuff, it's very familiar.

00:20:02: So yeah... That's the normal way of thinking about the whole issue of fossil fuels and energy transition… It somehow thought us as being a technical swap between different sources of energy.

00:20:20: so now we have This energy and then we just take out the plug, I'm put to a different wall.

00:20:26: And something better comes in.

00:20:29: That's like crude crude description of how it is discussed often in the media.

00:20:34: You don't have to very get that deep into any literature To really find out.

00:20:41: but well that doesn't seem to be the case.

00:20:43: Yeah Of course It Is Also A Technical Challenge In Many Ways.

00:20:51: But Let's just put it that way, the technical challenges are something we're in the current society or civilization quite apt at solving.

00:21:07: Whereas cultural issues is the complete opposite.

00:21:13: It seems like we always come up with technical solutions to problems nobody even knew Whereas everybody seems utterly incapable of even controlling themselves in this cultural chaos that we're in.

00:21:32: So...

00:21:34: The misconception, I guess then also the inconvenience here is that We are very well aware Of the issues that the dependency on oil derivatives and fossil fuels causes.

00:21:49: but maybe it seems like The way that the challenge is treated or looked at, it's maybe a bit underestimating.

00:21:59: The magnitude of actually being able to switch fully off from fossil fuels would have implications beyond.

00:22:08: you just need enough wind turbines... ...or solar panels?

00:22:13: Would they have some consequences and requirements on the ways we'd need to liberalise our lives in terms and the ways that we look at the world?

00:22:26: Absolutely, I mean... That will absolutely be the case.

00:22:31: It should already be a case!

00:22:35: Everything in the transition of getting rid off fossil fuels would be so much easier if were not trying to reproduce everything we have at the moment If every thing is what you are used to having has been produced and is based on fossil fuels in a very material way.

00:23:00: It will be obvious that it's more difficult to do without fossil fuels when, in the public eye we speak of the energy transition or the renewable energy its electricity.

00:23:16: The electricity is a specific form of energy.

00:23:18: It's very suited and it's good for many purposes, much better actually than burning which often tremendously inefficient but to other purposes its really not that well-suited at all.

00:23:35: requires sophisticated technological systems Which are in themselves quite heavy on the material side.

00:23:44: And that's one of the biggest races in technological research to develop more and more efficient, light ways to store electricity.

00:23:55: Of course we will need those if you open it out but... If the goal is just keep everything we have then its an impossible equation from start.

00:24:08: to try solve with electricity is a major form of energy use.

00:24:16: But still, it counts for about forty percent of emissions from energy and forty percent electricity globally has already been decarbonized.

00:24:28: so... It's kind-of limited what there is to be achieved by only decarmonizing electricity.

00:24:35: I mean it is obvious that should have done but its just the first step really.

00:24:44: And what are

00:24:47: the next steps?

00:24:49: Yeah, they're gonna be much more difficult.

00:24:50: I mean...I don't have a blueprint really.

00:24:54: It's going to look different everywhere.

00:24:56: The next step in Finland should something else than what there is in India or China and any other place.

00:25:06: There is now one size fits all solution That for sure.

00:25:10: But I am like personally quite concerned about food production and the future of food, because it's quite obvious that it cannot stay as is.

00:25:20: Nobody is really disputing that the current highly complex and intricate web-of-food systems we have in this world are absolutely based on fossil fuels in every aspect can not stay Some quite concerning because we will be able to survive without, I don't know if let's say smartphones but nobody would be able To survive with our food.

00:25:48: So in that sense That is one of the major issue.

00:25:53: It has not been discussed In relation to fossil fuels as it should Be at least for public eye.

00:26:02: What many people Would probably Tell you or kind Of challenge You With?

00:26:08: Well, look at all the innovation that's happened over the past hundred years.

00:26:13: Of course it has its own connection to fossil fuels as well but still there is something around human ability to innovate and when we really have to find our ways out what do you think of

00:26:28: this?

00:26:29: I would love if that was true But he doesn't really looks like in any way As already kind of implied All of the previous, most of their previous innovations had been somehow premised on the assumption of ever-growing inputs.

00:26:48: And that's what we have going on.

00:26:51: like if when you look at infrastructure systems they are not only based on electricity and energy as such They're based in a very specific form of an energy nonstop energy peak demand, ready energy and that sort of stuff.

00:27:11: High heat like storable one so forth.

00:27:17: in general the systems we have built are based on these very specific kinds of energy And different kind of energies really difficult to replace with another kind of energy.

00:27:29: So thats one thing into technology.

00:27:31: But then... The fundamental thought era in that way of thinking, we will just engineer our way out of this.

00:27:50: It's like all the engineering has been promised on access to easy and easy access to energy but practically unlimited access to it.

00:28:01: But the access itself is not something that can be engineered because that's the like precondition of everything else, what happens.

00:28:14: So it is kind of logically outside of same development we have had going on.

00:28:19: then other issues are about growth.

00:28:24: energy has been unbelievable in past one hundred years absolutely exploded.

00:28:32: even looking at the primary energy crafts, it's unbelievable.

00:28:35: But if we look like useful energy crafts and this is something that many let's call them optimists like to keep up or constantly remind us of is that fossil fuels are very inefficient which is true.

00:28:53: If you burn coal for electricity Even if you have a modern facility You're gonna lose sixty percent.

00:29:02: The chemical energy and the primary energy still counts all of it in.

00:29:07: so, It's kind of misleading but actually like historically speaking.

00:29:11: It's misleading the other way

00:29:13: around

00:29:15: In the historical crafts.

00:29:17: let's say if primary energy has grown at no hundred times in past Hundred years it has grown three hundred times into useful energy meaning that efficiency has become so much better That efficiency has grown much faster than the absolute use.

00:29:34: Yes, like even much faster meaning it sounds good But its not good because we're just spending more and more on more And The efficiency gains have NOT translated into lower Absolute Use Reductions.

00:29:48: that opposite is true.

00:29:50: You know about the Germans paradox which you have

00:29:52: yes

00:29:53: perhaps even discussed Yeah earlier sort of rebound effects in that sort of stuff.

00:29:59: There is no material flow really that would have gone out due to the development of technology.

00:30:06: Always it has happened, a pre-existing material flow found new outlet when it was replaced with something.

00:30:15: It's interesting what you say about.

00:30:18: I think we call this assumption of infinite energy inputs or energy flows?

00:30:24: Or also when we talked about innovation and technology question Are those assumptions also something that characterize the petro-cultural or fossil mentalities?

00:30:36: Absolutely.

00:30:37: That's probably one of the most iconic things.

00:30:43: in this way, I'm thinking... In the fossil mentality where you're thinking

00:30:49: You do a lot of analysis.

00:30:51: what has brought us here and what is happening?

00:30:54: Do you have some views for What should the future look like?

00:31:00: Or what should change other in our thinking, organising and acting.

00:31:07: Sure I mean yeah it would be more difficult to say what should not change... I mean what should changes is totality of social metabolism.

00:31:19: That's such an abstract statement that its barely comprehensible!

00:31:23: But does this really scale off a challenge?

00:31:28: when i lecture about this stuff for students, usually I show a picture of the horse and an octopus.

00:31:36: That's kind like change that we would need.

00:31:40: if our societies are currently horses they should somehow become octopuses but there are very few things in common with octopusses and horses.

00:31:49: And...that is like the scale of changes that we will need.

00:31:54: If you have it so quickly then its unbelievable and fathomable.

00:32:00: Yeah, where did it really start?

00:32:01: I mean there are what people usually want to hear when they ask that.

00:32:05: What should change is not this kind of high-level abstract almost meaningless Sentences but instead something really concrete That could be done.

00:32:16: and there are many Many low hanging fruits that could be picked right away.

00:32:22: Some of them include things like public transport Instead off private cars.

00:32:31: Change of diets would be like those are the Easiest ways that we'd have Significant impacts and will be significant steps to take.

00:32:42: First step to take.

00:32:43: but you kind of know this And these would be something that should've been done a long time ago.

00:32:50: I mean, it's wrong to say that It is too late.

00:32:53: Of course its too late but Its been too late for quite some time and That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.

00:32:59: instead The later the more important it gets To do this.

00:33:04: This is a cumulative problem we have.

00:33:07: It get worse year by year.

00:33:09: So ofcourse the remedy also has to... it gets More important every day.

00:33:16: so in that sense those slow hanging fruits are still low-hanging.

00:33:21: But then if you look at real politics, what's actually happening?

00:33:24: It doesn't really seem that those are low-hunging fruits.

00:33:27: I mean it's quite strange.

00:33:30: If you look up the political debate for example around private cars and mobility Doesn't really see him that Private cars in getting rid of them.

00:33:41: instead pumping ramping up public transport would be a low hanging fruit.

00:33:45: Like in material terms it is a really, really low-hugging fruit because we already have the system in place and know how to do.

00:33:54: Then there are those things that literally don't know what they're supposed to be doing but probably impossible for us to get rid of.

00:34:03: What about these?

00:34:06: Well... There's quite a few I mean most stuff that we are accustomed to in between these categories.

00:34:16: It's difficult to see how this kind of unbelievably complex high energy and high intensity technological world that we have with generative artificial intelligence, large language models everything getting bigger faster more intensive all the time.

00:34:36: but how could it be retained?

00:34:41: There is really no reason to think.

00:34:45: But how to change society in that regard, I don't know.

00:34:50: Maybe these are kind of like the sentences that stop making sense That we should

00:34:56: keep

00:34:57: speaking about more manageable details but then at the same time i think We should never even in this small detail lose sight off the big picture.

00:35:12: So In that sense Those are some things that we should really consider.

00:35:17: Food production, of course there is no singular food production in the world.

00:35:24: In a way it's almost a similar system as to this really global and globalized in many ways especially on the global north where they're really accustomed.

00:35:37: That another example of petro culture.

00:35:39: actually you are accustomed To the fact if If you go to Lafland and Finland, it's like really far north.

00:35:50: The summer is short and bright And the winter is long and dark and barely anything even grows there.

00:35:58: given in the summer It's really not that great place for agriculture to begin with Yeah But still we are all accustomed to the fact and We feel that we have a legitimate grievance if they're no bananas In the supermarket.

00:36:16: Yes in Lapland

00:36:17: it's quite great.

00:36:18: Yeah, I think is crazy It's insane.

00:36:21: so

00:36:22: it's like you have a banana as that's your standard snack.

00:36:25: and bananas never come from Finland or from Europe

00:36:29: nowhere near.

00:36:30: I mean they are really easily spoiled and quickly spoiled.

00:36:33: And still it's kind of like We haven't justified assumption.

00:36:38: but there are not only Bananas with really cheap bananas too In Laplands all year around.

00:36:45: So That's kind of well, that was just an example of the fossil mentalities and bad for cultures.

00:36:52: But there was also supposed to be a next sample of how globalized The like food system is yeah And especially in countries like Finland and any other Western country really that officially Finland has a high level Of self-sufficiency in food production.

00:37:11: It's something around eighty percent.

00:37:12: I think if you really thing If you really calculate into that all the inputs of food production, it vanishes.

00:37:22: I mean we are close to zero because barely anything would grow without fossil-based fertilizers, pesticides and fossil based logistics.

00:37:33: It is such an integrated system That making that kind of claim that we're eighty percent self sufficient Is almost nonsensical.

00:37:43: Demands that you draw the lines to like what really comes out of the ground.

00:37:48: That is In the area of Finland and in that regard we are back highly self-sufficient, but it would not come out off the ground if It wasn't for export inputs.

00:38:01: or I mean import imports.

00:38:02: I mean stuff that We have brought elsewhere because there are no fossil fuels in Finland.

00:38:07: But the food production here Is just as based on fossil fuels anywhere else.

00:38:13: But like food production is a good example of the stuff that we really should figure out how to organize in some other way.

00:38:21: Currently, there's a lot of research into that.

00:38:25: it's highly complex topic I don't think i'm very capable of commenting on but what I do now Is That There Are A Lot Of Models And Lot Of Ideas and Lot Of Stuff That Is Already Being Done Like agroecology and that sort of initiatives, they are really being put into practice as well.

00:38:51: But it's nowhere near some sort of an actual tipping point.

00:38:56: this would actually become mainstream.

00:39:00: We're not at any kind of a point in which our food systems would end mass be converted much more sustainable but completely sustainable by producing food But that's still something we should strive to do as quickly as possible, because it is at the so-called bottom of the imagined pyramid of needs.

00:39:26: Which probably imagines they used to be criticized a lot.

00:39:30: but anyway... We know what we need for food!

00:39:33: So its quite important.

00:39:38: Well I guess one conclusion from this conversation would say much more difficult than we tend to think.

00:39:49: Absolutely!

00:39:50: This whole thing?

00:39:53: How do you personally feel about this all?

00:40:00: Well, I mean...I work with it on a daily basis.

00:40:04: Do have hope that whenever we say we're gonna conquer climate change or save the world from climate change whatever?

00:40:17: Do you have hope and what do you have hoping?

00:40:22: The easy answer is no, but the I guess fashionable academic answer would be to say that your question doesn't make any sense.

00:40:33: That's how it usually nowadays think.

00:40:37: like countered that question because It seems to me that this whole question always comes up And it seems everyone that he always comes out.

00:40:46: In my view, it has already become fashionable to not want to talk about hope.

00:40:53: I don't really know if that's...

00:40:54: Behind the trends?

00:40:57: Perhaps maybe at least on the... I'll fix

00:41:00: it for next time.

00:41:01: Academic fashion is already fashionable enough to deny intelligibility of that question but..

00:41:10: It doesn't feel extremely cynical though

00:41:15: Not really.

00:41:18: There are many alternative answers to that.

00:41:22: It's not only they try and deny there is any hope, no... They deny instead the intelligibility of a question.

00:41:28: I am kind in the same party like you implied it yourself when asked do we have hope for saying whatever world would mean?

00:41:40: And they kind of drop onto.

00:41:42: that doesn't really means anything.

00:41:45: Like the way I see it, what you asked was in the end somewhat concrete.

00:41:51: that is there hope of avoiding The worst outcomes Of climate change and other ecological disasters some of which might even be worse In the long run?

00:42:06: on climate change meaning the loss of biodiversity They off course.

00:42:14: There is hope.

00:42:15: i mean It's up to people.

00:42:18: It's not like it would be somehow metaphysically impossible.

00:42:22: Yeah, no, it's not metaphysical impossible.

00:42:26: It's NOT technologically impossible.

00:42:29: we don't need some sort of a Like religious miracle nor do we need any sort of technological miracle?

00:42:38: We needed political miracle and cultural miracle.

00:42:43: So if when people ask is there help they usually asked What they actually mean is that, Is there hope?

00:42:52: this problem somehow just solves itself and we don't really have to change anything?

00:42:57: In that case the answer is no absolutely not.

00:43:00: There's no hope whatsoever.

00:43:03: But if the question then it a little bit more realistic.

00:43:08: That is their hope To some.

00:43:11: how avert The absolute worst outcomes which are Apollo Like Björg Gombra Hansen?

00:43:19: almost Yes, there is hope in a way it's but I mean personally.

00:43:27: I don't really Think about that that much really like how.

00:43:32: yeah, I don' t Really feel that I would need hoping and I didn't know what he could mean to have hope In a way mm-hmm Like what?

00:43:44: What did me?

00:43:46: I Mean?

00:43:46: i don't expect anything nice to come out of this And I do think the situation is utterly bleak.

00:43:53: It's looking really, very bad on almost all fronts and it is getting worse over time.

00:43:59: And looking at the political reality... ...it seems that those people in power.. At least some of them somehow do see what's going on Yeah?

00:44:11: ..and its not a nice way they are choosing.

00:44:15: Its kinda like this fortress Europe kind-of way Of trying to clutch everything we have but know there has no future but still plasticic harder.

00:44:26: Exactly, trying to resist the change that is inevitable and making it much more ugly in the process.

00:44:35: so... It really seems to me that its somewhat intentional when building up walls and franting up racism and xenophobia just hate basically militarization and all that sort of stuff.

00:44:51: It kind of lines up when you think about it, look at the big picture

00:44:55: sometimes wonder is it intentional or just a consequence?

00:45:01: I guess from that mental emotional cognitive material resistance whatever we want to call them do those changes happening then?

00:45:11: your clutching on what do you still have in your hands?

00:45:16: But if I can ask the question that you asked back to me, in terms of why would you need hope?

00:45:23: The way I think about it is for you... ...to find some meaning into whatever your doing.

00:45:33: I probably wouldn't have any kind of idea or faith

00:45:41: i.e.,

00:45:42: hope in that there is some kind of possibility or probability, even if very small.

00:45:51: That's gonna be... There's a possible little bit being successful and I guess then we can discuss how to define success for whatever efforts you put into the world but do have still chosen to work on this topic which it's very heavy?

00:46:08: And what are your personal motivation meaning in doing so?

00:46:13: Yeah, it's a good question.

00:46:14: I mean kind of trying to shoot down my answers.

00:46:18: It's good.

00:46:19: I do usually myself.

00:46:20: but yeah What is the personal motivation?

00:46:25: Well at least part of it Is that these questions They just simply are The most interesting thing there is to me means like i don't think There is anything more interesting in the world than this.

00:46:41: we're living Such a strange time of exception.

00:46:47: Like, almost like cosmic Time Of Exception.

00:46:51: There has never been anything like this before And there is no reason to expect that they will be.

00:46:57: It's unbelievable!

00:46:59: In the long history... ...of The Planet and the Long History Of Humanity This Is such A Weird Time To Live in.

00:47:09: it Has Come So Fast And The Changes Have Been So foundational and fundamental.

00:47:17: That alone makes it worth the time, a worthy effort trying to even understand that what's going on?

00:47:26: And how did we end up

00:47:27: here?".

00:47:29: It is so strange!

00:47:31: Maybe I should mention that I originally do my masters in practical philosophy before... shopping into the interdisciplinary environmental sciences that I'm doing my doctorate in.

00:47:46: And, and... That kind of explains the perspective that i have on this maybe?

00:47:52: That somehow just deemed a question itself and the topic itself.

00:47:59: The most interesting thing is there are all these questions about what does it even mean to be a fossil subject That has been somehow built by everything that is happening around us.

00:48:18: What does it mean to live in a fossil and modernity?

00:48:20: These are all concepts, they're probably being in the literature.

00:48:24: And since It Is True that when we read In these books I showed you this energy of civilization book on All those sort of material histories Of The World Since This Is True That This Is A State Of Exception Then...It Really Does I'll give reason to ask difficult and interesting questions.

00:48:50: Yeah, so i guess that's...I would like to say at least the main reason because a lot of colleagues who have always been my you know..i will call them mentored people.

00:49:02: they've been scouts when there were kids.

00:49:07: They are always being going outside spending most their lives in the forest.

00:49:12: They are activists nowadays and fighting for the forests, so forth.

00:49:17: I really wasn't... When how i became involved in any of this environmental stuff was from substance itself because somehow just came to conclusion that This is unbelievable.

00:49:32: if it's true then its most important thing there as a body.

00:49:36: And thats probably reason.

00:49:42: Sakari thank you very much

00:49:44: for

00:49:45: coming on today and sharing everything, there is so many takeaways from this conversations.

00:49:51: And definitely a lot for me and everyone else to digest and also keep in mind.

00:49:59: research further if you could leave us with one thing... One misconception about the whole topic that people would like to remember what it will be?

00:50:11: That's a difficult question but I had choose just one.

00:50:17: Well, if probably would have to be then the very basic fact that you encapsulated earlier nicely.

00:50:25: That The main problems that we have with energy transitions and fossil fuels on getting rid of them are not so much technical as they are cultural and political.

00:50:39: And If we want to have a transition that actually Has an impact in the way that we would like to think that it is supposed to have an impact, meaning... ...that climate change won't become the absolute catastrophe.

00:50:58: That it threatens to become then.. It will not be a simple technical swap.

00:51:06: Instead it should really like fundamental cultural profound change in ways we think and live.

00:51:15: But thats I guess somewhat evident to most people who work with this, but still it hasn't really triggered that well into the public consciousness.

00:51:27: Thank you so much for joining us!

00:51:32: It's been an absolute pleasure.

00:51:34: Absolutely thank you very much for having me whereas everybody seems utterly incapable of even controlling themselves in these cultural chaos we're in So

00:51:54: so great.

00:51:54: I need to get some water because it has something

00:51:58: short.

00:51:58: Sorry, please do

00:52:00: Give me two seconds.

00:52:02: feel you coming up just a second.