How do business and human rights fit together? with Salma Houerbi

00:00:11: Hello and welcome to Inconvenient Chats.

00:00:15: Today we'll be talking about business in human rights.

00:00:17: again, I have the pleasure of being joined by Salma Huwerby who has spent nearly a decade working on this topic across various organisations And that's why I was so happy to get Selma on the bot as someone who has years of experience doing exactly this.

00:01:18: We're so, so happy to have you here.

00:01:22: Actually we've already tried to record this two times and now I've had to postpone One of the reasons being that you lost your voice.

00:01:32: Yeah

00:01:33: But no again hear you very well Which is obviously nice for a podcast.

00:01:41: indeed

00:01:43: Selma You have worked in business and human rights for the past ten years with With or at organizations such as the UN Global Compact International Labour Organization, The Danish Institute for Human Rights.

00:01:56: So you have a long journey and lot of experience working with business and human rights.

00:02:02: You're not here today to represent any other these organizations but someone who's worked in the field for a long time And has a personal passion for topic.

00:02:12: I know that you also write about this topics As well.

00:02:18: What I think kind of like what that or how that passion was illustrated Was also in the way that we two met each other.

00:02:26: Mm-hmm, I think that was Like.

00:02:30: I don't know if you can remember that but it was maybe one and a half years ago And I first Met you when you were giving a little presentation on the new Trump administration's DEI backlash policies at this like small and informal business in human rights network where we were maybe, I don't know seven people sitting on a bar On the Thursday evening.

00:02:55: So yeah to me that's like beautiful little illustration of you know The passion And care That you feel towards Towards the field.

00:03:05: Thank You guys.

00:03:06: these are very kind words.

00:03:07: Of course.

00:03:08: i remember when We met.

00:03:10: Yeah.

00:03:10: I Don't Know if the group is still Alive.

00:03:11: Maybe We need To Make it alive again.

00:03:14: Exactly, yeah that's a really good follow-up from here.

00:03:20: And also another reason why I'm really excited to have you is because and what i really want to invite You two in convenient chats was Because ever since the podcast started for me this question of how human rights are treated and work with In business has been I think one of the most interesting inconvenient topics, especially from the logic of a business case applied to human rights because that kind at first can feel a bit controversial.

00:03:52: That's just like a bit complicated to say it least...I've already done an episode on the exact topic and theory around it so listeners could go check out.

00:04:04: but what is really cool?

00:04:06: today?

00:04:06: when i get to speak with you I actually get to have the view from someone who's been working on the field.

00:04:14: So not only theorizing about what ought-to be, but also what works and different kind of ideas that you've been able to develop as we've been out there because it is really easy.

00:04:28: Yes Thank You again!

00:04:30: And welcome all our listeners.

00:04:34: Before we go into the topic itself, I'd also like to understand a bit about your journey Salma.

00:04:41: So you've been nearly decade working across business human rights and sustainability.

00:04:45: You have been in different countries in different organisations.

00:04:49: What first drew you into this field?

00:04:52: Yeah good question I think, okay.

00:04:55: so as you mentioned i grew up in Tunisia and i also grew up at a time it was right after there were a lot of the uprisings across the Middle East.

00:05:06: And North Africa is one of the most defining public debate that led to the uprising in this region really around relationship between business state And I think for me, at that time there was a strong recognition.

00:05:22: the private sector is really important in creating jobs.

00:05:25: We were all about.

00:05:26: we need to create jobs but also equally important questions around which economic models are going forward and how do they benefit

00:05:37: people?

00:05:38: For me what i think of business and human rights essentially this What are the responsibilities that businesses have beyond creating employment?

00:05:52: And how do we really balance sort of competitiveness with social outcomes.

00:05:58: So I don't think knew it as a field per se, but when i discovered it ,I felt like was trying to answer some questions that had fascinated me on personal level.

00:06:13: Was there ever something or someone that really inspired you to step into the field?

00:06:19: Or a specific experience.

00:06:21: Yeah, yeah I'm trying to think...I wouldn't say like a person per se because i kind of stumbled up in business and human rights randomly but I do have my first work experience.

00:06:37: so one of my earlier experiences was with Battle Work Jordan.

00:06:42: Better Work is basically a program that's run by the International Labor Organization and IFC, so an international finance corporation.

00:06:51: And it's basically a multi stakeholder initiative That brings together factories brands in governments to improving working conditions within supply chain.

00:07:01: At that time we were looking at government industry And I spend a lot of time visiting factories and speaking directly with workers in that exercise.

00:07:17: It felt like, you know the frameworks and policies that i was kind of studying In schools finally made sense or had chases.

00:07:29: That experience is quite forming because it shaped Some of my thinking that I still kind of carry today around the importance of, you know how do we really center with humans in whatever policy or process.

00:07:46: That is designed by companies?

00:07:49: Or yeah think it could be.

00:07:52: and i think other thing was very interesting about that because there's a multi stakeholder initiative The complexity of like value chains, you know what?

00:08:03: You could see.

00:08:04: What the brand wanted to implement versus reality vs government.

00:08:08: Like just seeing all that complexity in practice.

00:08:12: and I think again didn't necessarily have maybe the language That i met later on my life but But i think i can practise it before i knew the frameworks.

00:08:25: that

00:08:30: story because I think it also really well illustrates as you were saying Who who was it?

00:08:35: That this work really is about.

00:08:36: and just those those workers And those like local communities, and all the people in the value chains.

00:08:43: And often i guess In our works because I also working in the sustainability field We we talk about things such as governance frameworks do diligence and such and You know that sometimes those terms can easily kind of lose the essence of work in a way.

00:09:04: A hundred percent, yeah I think that's something especially now right with all the reporting requirements and i think it is so easy to loose track why we're doing what.

00:09:17: Yeah, that is one thing I've also been reflecting on.

00:09:22: It's very encouraging.

00:09:23: of course there was a growing uptake of legislations and it's extremely encouraging.

00:09:30: i think There are more and more sophistication in this space That you have companies who are investing and having big departments human rights And we're really specializing as we go.

00:09:43: But yeah but maybe the things to watch out for.

00:09:48: How do we really keep centering the humans, and also how to become better at measuring impact?

00:09:58: Because I think that we've been focusing a lot on process.

00:10:01: We have done a lot of progress in terms supporting companies with developing policies due diligence frameworks reporting requirements.

00:10:11: but But what extent do these really translate to better outcomes for workers and communities?

00:10:18: And I think, yeah.

00:10:20: That's the question that all of us working in this sustainability space maybe we want ask ourselves like well how is this... What difference did this make from workers and community?

00:10:31: then How do we keep centering as we go about these processes?

00:10:34: right

00:10:37: Such a good point because you were mentioning professionalization of the field, what is actually your take on if you contrast this field ten years ago when we started?

00:10:50: And now where do you see the biggest evolutions.

00:10:54: How has these fields developed and What are you most excited about also in those in those evolutions?

00:11:01: Yeah good question I think for me The Biggest Progress has really been around.

00:11:09: I think the space has moved from the margins to becoming sort of more mainstream, and i think that's really something we should not undersell.

00:11:20: It is amazing!

00:11:21: And ten years ago maybe the conversation was about whether companies even addressed possibilities?

00:11:28: Today were discussing how it could look like right?

00:11:34: Another big success in this field that we developed a shared language and I think, also fundamental in how we set expectations.

00:11:46: So having the shared language where concepts like due diligence leverage remedy stakeholder engagement have really penetrated these corporate rooms are now widely understood.

00:12:02: it's pretty huge Yeah, and I think another thing that personally maybe excites me is at least what i observe.

00:12:13: Is there's also a growing diversity of voices who

00:12:17: are

00:12:18: not only shaping the field but also challenging it?

00:12:23: And I think thats really great if we think like civil society organizations from the global south you know they went form documenting impacts to to also bringing perspectives about what effective implementation could look like, too.

00:12:38: Also challenging the field completely and saying this is not working.

00:12:43: And I think that diversity and richness That's also again maybe points a bit to What i was saying around how that contributes To perhaps grounding us even more in the realities of.

00:12:58: Yeah It's based on the ground if you have more diverse voices

00:13:02: speaking.

00:13:02: so I think these are all things that, yeah, excite me quite a bit.

00:13:07: I don't know if you also asked about what excites me right?

00:13:12: Yes but i'm going to ask you about what frustrations we do before.

00:13:24: If you have in mind, if you remember still the type of tasks that your working on.

00:13:28: The types questions companies were asking at the beginning when they started versus today because I could imagine with this professionalization and mainstreaming of a topic company has become much more mature which is great Because we need to start with awareness and knowledge.

00:13:48: But is there something in the type of work that you do as well, as your advice companies and organizations?

00:13:55: Yeah.

00:13:55: I think it's a great question!

00:13:57: You've also probably observed this yourself, Kaisa from your role but... In the beginning, there was a lot of emphasis on The Why And we are still talking about The Why.

00:14:12: I mean, I can speak quite a bit about like the Middle East and Africa region as well when it comes to that.

00:14:18: We spent a lot of time trying to build this case for The Why so why companies should do it?

00:14:24: And now we are still talking about The Why but It got much more complex in terms of business cases.

00:14:36: or think there were like no thinking at that time, but in the beginning I don't think we really thought about our own operations.

00:14:49: So if you're thinking how to do it was mostly focused on workforce and now there's much more focus on supply chains because The field is more and more sophisticated.

00:15:04: I think there's been a lot of knowledge also that went into.

00:15:07: companies are now asking the right questions about how do we do it?

00:15:11: How do we center rights holders, how do you work with others?

00:15:16: what does it mean to have A true local approach?

00:15:20: all these

00:15:20: question.

00:15:21: yeah That no framework can answer And i think thats really fantastic too.

00:15:27: see

00:15:28: Yeah And I think that tells you a little bit like, what is the definition of success when working in this field?

00:15:34: Because maybe there's no one right outcome.

00:15:35: There are also a lot about The How.

00:15:38: This was something i know You've written on your blog posts.

00:15:45: Yeah!

00:15:45: Interesting That piece...I wrote it in relation to The How and I think the central argument for that article we can link as well.

00:15:56: We'll add into

00:15:57: the show notes.

00:15:59: I think the central argument is that how companies position and issue internally matters as much, whether they work on it or not.

00:16:08: And for gender its so clear.

00:16:16: but if an issues sits Let's even take a step back and not think of social issues, whatever issue that sits on the margin for an organization as standalone initiative or something that depends too much on individual champions.

00:16:35: It will struggle for attention it will struggle resources but if we want to be taken seriously has to be embedded into governance, into serious processes.

00:16:54: Into risk management and decision-making.

00:16:58: And I think that's again... To go like..I was talking about how we should be careful That it doesn't become too much of a process.

00:17:04: but here i'm also arguing that It HAS TO BE A PROCESS!

00:17:06: Right?

00:17:09: Because you have to know both

00:17:11: Exactly exactly and ...and I think thats really important.

00:17:17: I think BHR knowledge can also borrow.

00:17:21: Like, i find the intersection of you know that whole normative publishing that links to BHR with organizational change To be really useful.

00:17:30: like because we often assume That if We can prove a business case or If we can persuade people about something then change is going to happen.

00:17:39: but But i also think A very interesting question Is what How does change happen and what can we learn from other scholarships also?

00:17:51: Change happens when incentives are set up right, when they're in governance.

00:17:56: And accountability also evolves.

00:17:58: so how do you think about that as well?

00:18:04: yeah That's fascinating.

00:18:07: We'll get to a few of those points later.

00:18:11: but since I asked Are there also things where you get a bit frustrated that there hasn't been more progress?

00:18:22: Yeah, I think maybe relating little bit or like.

00:18:24: I'll expand on what we were talking about.

00:18:28: Sometimes i worry that we've become much better at measuring process than impact

00:18:36: A bit more.

00:18:37: yeah for example a big program.

00:18:43: And I think what I noticed is that from the private sector, which was great there's huge focus on having KPIs and also in place but I don't think to which these processes are actually translating into better outcomes for workers communities or other rights holders like our KPIs.

00:19:10: they're proxies sometimes, right?

00:19:12: And to what extent are those proxys really translating reality?

00:19:17: especially as when we think about due diligence.

00:19:20: We think about it as a process.

00:19:21: It's not about perfection Right!

00:19:23: It is really about having learning and improving over time As well.

00:19:31: I think that sometimes if you try translate into like a process it could lose the linear aspect of, and become a bit more like every year we're reporting on XYZ.

00:19:45: And then our indicators are sort what stories those indicators telling us?

00:19:52: To what extent do they really make difference for workers in communities?

00:19:59: so

00:20:00: I think

00:20:01: that's one area.

00:20:04: Again, going back like the process is important.

00:20:07: But I don't and it's important that its consistent accountable and transparent but It should sort of remain as a mean to an end not The End itself.

00:20:20: Yeah That's really nice way of putting it where you kind of need both?

00:20:23: But you need to keep in mind what is the end goal?

00:20:27: yeah Yeah another thing i was thinking about they're also frustrating.

00:20:32: thats little bit A little bit off and I wouldn't say it's a frustration, but what next?

00:20:41: We have done a lot on BHR.

00:20:44: But

00:20:45: sometimes we tend to focus too much on what companies can do individually And I think due diligence is one mechanism of change.

00:20:56: There are probably many levers also beyond beyond the one guiding principles per se.

00:21:03: So I think it's very interesting to think about other drivers that can support change.

00:21:12: and yeah, there may be many who are worth exploring a bit more instead of thinking oh is this public policy?

00:21:21: Is it worker voice or finance?

00:21:27: Maybe it's a bit about thinking how do all these levers sort of work together to have the greatest impact in this specific context if you see what I mean.

00:21:40: Are there any specific tools or mechanisms that companies would like to explore more beyond due diligence?

00:21:49: Yeah, great question!

00:21:51: I think yeah...I

00:21:52: might not be thinking just as a company should be doing

00:21:57: but actually

00:21:59: I'm thinking yes exactly that's what i'm about to say.I really love the example of Rana Plaza, I mean Rana plaza being a tragedy per se ,but it happened after Rana Plaza right?

00:22:13: So Rana was building collapsed in Bangladesh.

00:22:21: Many of our listeners are probably aware it's really a true tragedy.

00:22:26: that also became the sort of turning point for the global garment industry back then.

00:22:32: And one of their key developments was around the Accord, so this is a legally binding agreement that was signed between brands unions governments factories yeah and It's almost like there was ecosystem of actors that work towards addressing a problem.

00:22:54: So, and I think in the sense... Yeah!

00:22:58: ...I think this was possible because many actors were pushing in the same direction government-strengthened oversight trade unions gained power civil society documented issues investors asked good questions.

00:23:14: consumers were appalled And brands also recognized they need to change.

00:23:19: So I think to answer your question, why am... I think there is something around what could be done collectively.

00:23:28: You know?

00:23:28: There's a lot that can do with an individual company

00:23:32: from

00:23:33: the due diligence process but also thinking about which intervention model would work based on which actors are their And how do we create basically an environment where change happens?

00:23:52: I think in that sense, the global frameworks are very useful.

00:23:57: But if we were to replicate that experience... ...I don't think we could have the same experience replicated in Tunisia or in Latin America.

00:24:08: We need to think about Yeah, what role each actor has and how can all these actors together drive change?

00:24:18: And it's almost like maybe the company for the company.

00:24:20: Maybe It's also a bit about moving beyond your own Like room to thinking that ecosystem as well.

00:24:27: on How do you engage with their ecosystem?

00:24:29: I think That's a brilliant point that You can't necessarily replicate this same type of ecosystem model or ecosystem consultation model from one location or one geography to another.

00:24:43: because you know depending on the I guess, depending on a little location.

00:24:46: Depending on the industry your supply chain is your local communities are always gonna have a little bit of different type ecosystem.

00:24:57: but The idea Of thinking in terms of this system that you're part and the different leverage points and different stakeholders in that system Is like an broader way of looking at it?

00:25:12: Yes, I think you say so well.

00:25:14: Very much so.

00:25:16: and this is again when due diligence or even legislation gives us a very good common direction in terms Understanding local institutions and relationships, socials of influence is really what allows us to design whatever intervention.

00:25:42: And again it's almost like... let's even take a step back into sustainability.

00:25:47: like whatever intervention right that would have to be designed with.

00:25:51: we need to consider that right.

00:25:54: so, it is kind of important to map.

00:25:57: That effectively and the end.

00:25:59: I think there are no one size fits all on its.

00:26:02: not all this.

00:26:04: this worked in, I don't know here.

00:26:06: maybe we try it elsewhere.

00:26:09: But you can take some of that thinking exactly what you said like around the process.

00:26:16: and how do we really make sure there is an understanding of local institutions?

00:26:21: How do we centre people a lot if they could yeah its same output but won't necessarily look the same way.

00:26:30: And that's what's exciting, no?

00:26:34: Yeah.

00:26:35: Maybe since you were talking about how the field has evolved from looking at your own workforce than now looking out of your supply chain and look it up in local communities... So maybe next step can be looking at kind of your ecosystem more broadly but also embedding that notion.

00:26:57: you know, how do we all relate to each other?

00:27:02: Because I think even now in the way that the EU regulation mostly treats these types of like stakeholder aspect is very static view.

00:27:11: Of who are you connected too?

00:27:13: but maybe hopefully getting more towards How Are We Connected To and what Is The Dynamic That We Work In?

00:27:22: Yeah i love it especially from again if You work on gender equality work on gender quality without thinking about power and power mapping, and power relations.

00:27:33: And I think what you're saying is just so accurate!

00:27:38: Hopefully it's the ambition over time like how do we really move beyond static categorization right?

00:27:50: And build that in more... Yeah!

00:27:53: There are already some good examples.

00:27:55: actually I know there's quite a bit that has been done on, if you look at like DFIs and especially around the independent accountability mechanisms of DFIs.

00:28:16: They've issued some really good guidance... There is some very good guidance about what do we mean by stakeholder engagement also?

00:28:23: And how did they do it?

00:28:24: in a way because Ultimately, it's also about that.

00:28:29: And I think sometimes in the other channel when we talk about stakeholder engagement... We mean stakeholder engagement up but stakeholder engagement is also right for the engagement.

00:28:43: so as we fleshed out what could look like and there are ways of doing it you don't want to fatigue in a way that is strategic and also optimal for the company.

00:29:00: Because usually we know people are working with it, oftentimes with the resource.

00:29:08: so how do you really strike this balance between deep work but also optimal work?

00:29:21: really good point and probably something that most of the people who are working, you know part of the organizations in half days on their plates um...that they really need to balance with.

00:29:32: And I mean now we've kind like i think we've been being able to go through a few of the ideal things.

00:29:41: you know, centrality of the rights holder.

00:29:44: So people that this work is really about... You mentioned now these ecosystem view and a systemic view.. You also mention how things are done.

00:29:56: so there's process in how things're embedded into structures off the organisation.

00:30:03: But let's talk about that.

00:30:05: other part of the token, you also mentioned.

00:30:09: Of course all these require resources and maybe often it is a challenge.

00:30:14: at least traditionally social rights work has been confronted with in an organizational context especially for example now when there are lots volatility around companies cutting costs across everything.

00:30:32: How do you think about the value creation, strategic view?

00:30:37: Of course without undermining again the ultimate ambition which is that social responsibility and rights of every human part of these value chains.

00:30:49: Yeah it's just a one million dollar question but yeah

00:30:57: I

00:30:58: think there are two things here.

00:31:02: Yes, it's true that there is

00:31:06: a lot

00:31:06: happening in terms of volatility in the world.

00:31:12: But I also think some of the challenges we're exposed to are so imminent.

00:31:20: I think we were talking about all these challenges as like, oh, challenges of the future for a long time.

00:31:37: And and i think now... I mean they're there so.. So I think where-we're dealing with them whether we wanted or not?

00:31:49: Like in it's how we are dealing is something else but there's action.

00:31:54: Inaction is also action, right?

00:31:57: So I think that's just like maybe a metaphor on where we're at and i think... That's one aspect!

00:32:09: There was something about the business case here but more than ever when I was younger you know, the business case would dilute that ethical argument for human life up to a certain point.

00:32:29: But now I think especially nowadays it is very important because often language enables these conversations within companies.

00:32:37: so if we need yes and different... And again as we start with what was just saying earlier different incentives work with different people to create change and you have to map them, then we know that the business case functions just a certain extent.

00:32:59: And if it can be used to build internal action than... That's one aspect.

00:33:07: again I think there is yeah i think thats another thing not to be discouraged.

00:33:13: also I would also, because i talked a little bit about how sometimes we want to make sure that this exercise or agenda doesn't become pure reporting.

00:33:31: How do you make sure the resources are allocated where you need to allocate them?

00:33:38: And ultimately if your reporting is easy It's almost, can we think about that?

00:33:50: Can we pick up the fact that... We're doing your diligence and then as a result were reporting.

00:33:56: And can we translate that in how we allocate resources?

00:33:59: And when I mean resource there also means time and energy.

00:34:01: Yeah!

00:34:01: I don't

00:34:06: know if

00:34:06: I'm answering some of you questions but yeah

00:34:11: No it definitely doesn't.

00:34:13: Well not really.

00:34:15: I've been working for long enough in the field to know that there is no silver bullet otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

00:34:28: Have you had experiences when your work with different companies where they have been able maybe flip from burden, compliance reporting kind of like I guess more negative connotation with this work into something that what they've been able to then leverage it more strategically and change their view.

00:34:47: Change the way they work with or whether than also changed the value.

00:35:01: Yeah, there's certainly countless examples of companies who have done it like that.

00:35:08: I think again the moment really becomes a strategic priority and the moment sits within that area of work then is ultimately around that.

00:35:21: We've also seen – we know many companies take this sustainability agenda seriously and at a high level that you also see them engaged in multi-stakeholder initiatives, they even move beyond the individual sort of positioning to doing work across sectors.

00:35:43: And I think there's many examples where again especially for sectors with higher risk are countless examples.

00:35:57: But it necessitates, I think a strong backup from leadership and also for the agenda to be strategically positioned.

00:36:10: That's really important!

00:36:19: You know, even if we like to talk about KPIs and we'd like to Know Relatively quickly whether our investments have been quote-unquote worth it.

00:36:39: There are often times where topics like this Would also say that applies to research in innovation product development.

00:36:47: you Often need to kind of stick around for some time And only after do start actually realising the real value, because also in this case you need to build those relationships with your stakeholders or your rights holders and start understanding them.

00:37:07: Building that relationship again like building into an ecosystem instead of kind doing a one-off thing and fixing it's not really a fixing thing.

00:37:16: maybe It is more about thinking what should be done continuously

00:37:20: Absolutely, absolutely.

00:37:22: And I think...I mean i also started by saying earlier on that we need to remember.

00:37:28: it's a process and we have to remember its about improving and reflecting what doesn't work.

00:37:37: It is not one time fix.

00:37:39: Its not linear sort of like.

00:37:41: oh you do this once then your done with it A lot times when when we think about work in this field, sometimes I think that's the risk.

00:37:54: We really are thinking of it from a quick win mentality but in reality you need to invest and read the benefits later on.

00:38:09: I think if we go back to the philosophy of video and guiding principles on business and human rights, it's really about disclosing what doesn't work as well.

00:38:18: Right?

00:38:19: And making sure that it is addressed but... But this has never been a perfection.

00:38:23: It has not ever been perfect.

00:38:26: process like our supply chain is free from any issues!

00:38:33: So if we really think that, then it is long-term work.

00:38:39: And actually this forever works as long as company activities exist kind of in some ways right?

00:38:46: Like you want to minimize them and do no harm but there's never been the expectation remedying to what isn't working.

00:38:59: and then that's again.

00:39:00: maybe it would be another forgotten pillar like now.

00:39:03: Maybe needs.

00:39:04: how do we activate that?

00:39:05: And, and, and again its circular and is a journey.

00:39:14: What about the situations where human rights work may be?

00:39:20: does make doing business harder?

00:39:26: Yeah good question okay yeah I think I think this is again, yeah on the business case because i talked a little bit earlier about how important that it especially in this climate where there's more and more pushback.

00:39:42: How we can be so useful in making the case internally?

00:39:48: And I think thats definitely the case.

00:39:52: But I also think, as you said there are cases maybe where...I think this collusion is a bit about when and how do we see it.

00:40:01: And what time frame does one take to look at the conclusion?

00:40:03: Because first of all regulation has become essential.

00:40:09: if we go back into what I was talking about.

00:40:11: There's state business society with three actors.

00:40:19: commercial incentive is one incentive, right?

00:40:22: So if respecting

00:40:23: human rights

00:40:24: always doesn't align perfectly with the commercial incentives then it's almost like when we wouldn't need regulation.

00:40:32: If it was always aligned.

00:40:33: but that this also why We Need Regulation because That's what you have three

00:40:38: actors.

00:40:39: But I also think we should not be short-sighted and thinking about About that Because i Think in many situation regulation is interesting because it also changes the competitive landscape.

00:40:53: So, it's almost like then companies who are doing their right thing are not disadvantaged for doing that and in some ways creates a more level playing field where respect

00:41:06: has

00:41:07: an expectation over time.

00:41:10: so maybe collides today but... It will not collide over over time, if with the right regulation and then it becomes an expectation.

00:41:20: And I think that's something really to think about instead of thinking always about the collusion.

00:41:29: yeah i don't know if That makes sense.

00:41:32: so It's almost like The business case is there to help companies understand how they create value?

00:41:38: And gain traction.

00:41:40: but Regulation is also there to provide guardrail when the market incentives are insufficient.

00:41:46: But also, ultimately it will lead to better economies because we're levelling the playing field.

00:41:54: So let's think long term here!

00:41:59: I think that makes perfect sense and again It is a good reminder of how kind need all these different parts society To build this systems which really work for purposes We set them.

00:42:14: Yeah, I mean one thing.

00:42:16: i also really shared this with you already.

00:42:19: One think that... Oh!

00:42:21: I always think about when I think of the business case it's actually gender equality because I don't think existence is necessarily yielding to action and

00:42:36: a

00:42:36: great example is gender equality.

00:42:38: there's decades of evidence that are showing the more gender diverse organizations, perform better and obeyed more attract talent more effectively.

00:42:48: But we also know that progress is much slower than this evidence would suggest And I think again a good example to show.

00:42:57: Maybe evidence alone does not change behavior Because it could compete with other aspects like systemic barriers power dynamics Organizational structure and like inertia.

00:43:10: And again, maybe you need different layers because one alone is no.

00:43:18: yeah Yeah exactly I wonder since Since you know we've been alluding to You know, it matters how you do things.

00:43:28: Uh...you need to remember to centre on your rights holders and engage them in the right way.

00:43:34: Do you have like a top three?

00:43:37: Top five something that no brainers think all companies should make sure they're doing because It's an obvious thing but maybe not everyone has thought about it.

00:43:49: Great question I think.

00:43:52: study the context is really important, so that would be one thing.

00:44:01: If you can't speak with rights holders, speak with their representative as much as you can and when I mean your representative it could be civil society organisation or national human rights institution anyone who speaks on behalf.

00:44:14: if its very difficult to have direct engagement What else?

00:44:21: Make sure that you have a plan.

00:44:24: Know who your stakeholders are, and also whatever you engage them know why you're trying to engage them.

00:44:33: for what I think.

00:44:36: sometimes there's a lot around like...I was even thinking about it in another different context.

00:44:42: but when you do consultations good consultation is one of those makes use of the knowledge that stakeholder group has.

00:44:55: So thinking carefully about their design, like you could have a presentation when bring everyone but then nothing comes out because they're not asking right question to the right person.

00:45:06: there might be good questions for someone maybe it's not for them.

00:45:11: so I think thinking little bit more and one very simple thing that I would also encourage all of us to think about is how do we make sure whatever plan comes out of corporate rooms, it's accessible and to people including rights holders.

00:45:37: So making sure your plans on sustainability are public or accessible easily findable.

00:45:46: I think that's a very simple thing.

00:45:48: That could also create like do a lot in terms of fostering transparency more broadly and yeah, i don't know if...that may be more than three!

00:46:03: That's great.

00:46:04: you're answering to.

00:46:05: what would the typical pitfalls companies will do when they are doing their work but maybe not leveraging it for full value?

00:46:16: You mentioned this reporting aspect and making sure that all the things you know, this type of resource like that would be easily accessible.

00:46:51: or what would you like to see instead so it could even more accessible?

00:46:56: No

00:46:57: I think its fantastic.

00:46:59: It's a great step and we've already seen some work from civil society organisations looking at analysing the kind of reporting.

00:47:07: I think that's also the logic we should be heading towards.

00:47:14: So, it is great!

00:47:16: We'll need a bit more time to figure out and discuss what impact these legislations really are in terms of people again but i definitely think its fantastic step toward transparency.

00:47:31: And another thing you're probably very well aware of Kaisha how do we harmonize this reporting?

00:47:39: That was also one of the value add of having that.

00:47:42: I remember when I was working with a business and human resources center, we were doing a lot of work around benchmarking companies and looking at these reports to study like this secondary data that company produce them And you know The fact that you don't have those harmonized Reports could also be really hard too To analyze it.

00:48:01: i think Having that common framework is again once said towards the right decision like collectively advancing responsible business.

00:48:10: I think

00:48:12: then it also creates opportunities for companies because there's a lot around.

00:48:16: how do we learn from each other?

00:48:17: How do we share with each other?

00:48:21: and maybe that sounds a bit undertapped, but I'd be really curious to see what will evolve in the future as well.

00:48:30: That is another good example of you know, leverage something that maybe can easily be viewed as like a compliance burden into something that actually yields some very insightful insights.

00:48:51: We're heading towards the end of our time here but I wanted to ask you now before we head off after almost a decade working in the field what keeps you motivated?

00:49:05: What gives you hope or energy?

00:49:10: I think it's conversations like these, have to say.

00:49:13: Yeah i enjoy them so thank you very much for that and the invitation To your podcast!

00:49:22: I'll keep following.

00:49:23: It is fantastic That You Have This Space To Take A Step Back And Think And Reflect Conversations.

00:49:33: What keeps me motivated Is Really Curiosity Because Every Discussion you know, with a company and every company is different.

00:49:43: A trade union an investor or civil society organization.

00:49:47: it's almost like they give you like different perspectives on the same challenge And I think that's one thing that i really find exciting about this field.

00:49:56: but there is yeah no single actor has a whole answer.

00:50:00: But how do all these pieces sort of fit together?

00:50:04: Yeah

00:50:07: You've told me when you started your career in And as you've been working in the field, You have really fascinated about different questions.

00:50:16: Is there a question that you're still trying to answer?

00:50:22: I think so many!

00:50:24: The more you ask your question... Every question brings fifteen other questions right?

00:50:30: That's

00:50:32: also true.

00:50:35: But maybe if i do like think about it.

00:50:40: I think when they started, that was really interested in looking at what does responsible business look like?

00:50:47: And now more interesting than thinking about how do we create conditions for responsible businesses to become sort of the norm.

00:50:58: and then I think by that mean yeah It's a bit what I was telling you How can this ecosystem have actors contribute and how do dynamics differ from one country or a sector to another, instead of just being sort of prescriptive that this is what you should do.

00:51:16: I'm become a bit more like macro in my thinking these days than really also very interested in reading it but learning about other scholarships.

00:51:29: It's almost the political economies of responsible business conduct.

00:51:35: what could that look like?

00:51:37: And of course, as we do that how to keep people at the center.

00:51:48: I think these are questions i'm keen more about in future.

00:51:55: Well, I'd love to have you back then when... When you feel like you've had some kind of answer gathered or at least elements of an answer.

00:52:03: I would love to hear more about the conditions as you were saying because i think that's also really positive.

00:52:10: framing for things As we're alluding too before it is not really perfection.

00:52:15: It isn't everyone fitting one certain mold, but it's more around like a mentality of continuous improvement and also remembering what we do this for.

00:52:29: And

00:52:30: that's quite inspirational I find.

00:52:33: Yeah, yeah.

00:52:35: And I think there's again with the sophistication of this space and we are heading there.

00:52:41: so maybe i'm too positive compared to like...I know you were drawing the landscape for us but I think it used be a bit because We don't have choice Like in these moments that we need to think about what could do differently right?

00:53:00: That's true.

00:53:01: Thanks for that, Salma and thanks the whole conversation.

00:53:04: I'm so happy we got to do this And i hope maybe i'll get you on board again, lovely

00:53:10: Yeah with pleasure!

00:53:24: Think ill last two seconds.

00:53:27: Someone called me.

00:53:28: So thats what happened, someone calls.